Etiquette?

[kyrgan]

What is the expected etiquette of Admins and Moderators when changing, moving or deleting a users post?

I have had posts edited and/or moved without so much as a boo from the admin/mod as to why.

To me, this is seems just a bit rude. On the boards I maintain I manage to let the user in on what's up. This helps the user correct what ever the offending issue was or learn about where is the appropriate place on the board to post the message.

My $.02
Thanks

 

[erik.van.geit]

Hi,

to my sense we have great moderators
Once I had a quarrel with a member: some mods took the time to write some PM's to "moderate" it: really timeconsuming.

This post has been moved to "about this board" by one of those volunteers
It seems obvious to me, that you want to know more about the Board by posting this question: so you are not simply going to start a "chat", which would belong to the Lounge.

Ther is a lot of traffic on the Board: I think that's the main reason why they cannot PM all the time to the posters, telling them why a post was moved. I've seen quite a lot of edited posts, but always with a little note within the post itself.

We can not exclude that one of the mods has a bad moment, but in general my feeling is they do a great job!

http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?t=181095

kind regards,
Erik

 

[Joe4]

Different Moderators have different styles. Regarding the moving/deletion/editing of posts, here is my style (and I believe many other Moderators styles are similar):

1. If I am simply moving a post because it was posted to the wrong forum, I will not PM the person, as I leave a "Shadow" in the original location to show that the post was moved (so they can still link to it from where they posted it). There was nothing wrong with the post other than its location, so there really isn't a reason to PM them. If they repeatedly post to the wrong forum, I may PM them to tell them which forum they should post to (usually not necessary, people catch on quick).

2. We occassionally get hit with SPAM messages. Those are deleted/moved off of the board. We do not PM them, as it is pointless to PM Spammers. Admins will disable accounts that post SPAM.

3. If I have to delete or move a post off of the public forums because of content, I will PM the offending members (mostly to ensure it doesn't happen again).

4. I occasionally edit posts where people have posted their email address (to protect them from SPAM trollers). I follow it up with either a response or PM telling them whey I editing it.

5. If people cross-post or post the same question multiple times, I may delete the duplicate posts with no replies. If there are replies, I usually lock one and post the link back to the first question. Once again, I usually indicate why I do this in the post itself or a PM. The exception to this is I will often see the same question posted in succession just a few moments apart. This occurs when the system is slow and people hit the "Submit" button multiple times. As I know it was accidental, I simply leave the first one and delete the accidental duplicates.

If you are having a lot of posts deleted or moved, you may want to refer to the posting guidelines here:
http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?t=131687

 

[kyrgan]

Erik, thanks for the response.

I also note that this message has also been moved to a forum with very little readership. Why? Is this not worthy of a chat? It's okay to kvetch about users but not mods? Where is the line drawn and who makes the decision? I can tell you it's not on the Terms of Use nor is it in any guidline I can find on these boards.

I am aware of the fact that everyone here is a volunteer. But that does not mean that they should be able to modify postings without giving a reason to the users. We have no idea what is done behind the curtains. We are not priviy to conversations between admins and moderators.

I have seen post's where there are notes in the post from the admin/mod stating as to why. But recently I see edits without description or reason.
Nothing more than a blurb saying it was edited by Admin. I don't expect a detailed reason, but a short note does not seem like a task that is beyond civility.

I also put in time trying to help other users on this board. I don't expect thanks, reward or even a return note from a user that my assistance was of any help. I do let people know if they have been helpful. I have even sent dinner gift cards to people who have assisted me as a token of thanks. Nor do I have an expectation having my questions answered.

But as an IT professional among others professing to be professionals, I do have an expectation of respect.

Again, thats just my $.02

 

[kyrgan]

JM, thank you for taking an interest in my whining.

I have actually been on the receiving end of your post/PM and I am extremely grateful for your professionalism. If all the moderators could follow your lead there would be no issues.

I recently had a topic where I was trying to get something accomplished and, thought the topic had plenty of views there were no responses to a simple question. After going back and letting others know it was resolved and how to solve it the next time someone wants to accomplish the same task, something looked odd to me.

I noticed that my issue did not make sense because ½ of my posting had been removed by an admin. There was a note in the posting that it was removed, but no reason as to why, or an offer of assistance. In the end I look like a user who is asking ½ a question.

I wish there were a way to see who edits what.

Again, thanks for letting me whine.

 

[NateO]

Hello,

I moved this thread here because this is clearly where it belongs. Note that the Lounge is "A place to chat." You know, like light banter, jokes, debates of sorts, etc... Questioning the etiquette of the Forum's Moderators and Admin is nothing of the sort, so it doesn't belong there.

Note that this forum, About This Board is, well it's for questions about how this board operates. This is clearly a question pertaining to how this board operates and this thread belongs in this forum.

The reason this forum gets less readership is that most members are not well-positioned to answer questions, like yours, posted in this forum. It's typically only frequented by Sr. Members, here, Moderators and Admin. As your question seems to be directed at Moderators and Admin, this forum suffices nicely for this thread.

So, there you have it, one very lengthy explanation from the Forum Admin who moved your message. I normally do not reply to messages saying why I moved them, because it's normally very obvious, to me, at least...

These are very high-volume forums, as you might note here:

http://www.alexa.com/data/details/traffic_details?q=&url=www.mrexcel.com/

And we like to keep this rather large amount of posting organized in our currently assigned structure. So if you want to ask an Excel question in the Access forum? Bank on it being moved. If you want to ask questions about the Forums and how they operate in the Lounge, again, bank on the thread in question being moved.

It's not personal, it's not a matter of etiquette, it's simply a matter of housekeeping. There's my thoughts on moving threads.

Now, on to Moderators and Admin editing threads:

But that does not mean that they should be able to modify postings without giving a reason to the users.

But, this is exactly what we do. Please apprise yourself of our forum rules, that you agree to follow:

http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?p=500919#500919

See, right here:

The moderating, support and other teams reserve the right to edit or remove any post at any time.

And note, this isn't the only thread tonight in which I'm going to ask you to review these rules and come to terms with them and, unfortunately, the 2nd thread in which I do this will be one too many.

In any event... I'm not clear on the thread you're speaking to. If I edit one of your threads, for example, the thread won't indicate that it was edited unless I leave a comment that indicates it was. For example:

http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?p=1112811#1112811

Note that I have made a short comment indicating why I have edited that thread. This is also a good example as my comment, while it explains my actions, may not be transparent to all. There's an issue, here, where people post HTML Spreadsheets into posts that are missing closing HTML Tags. This causes the thread to visually corrupt, and we then have to remove them. Once removed, the thread is fine again, and no one is the wiser, so I leave a comment indicating why I have edited the thread.

Even if you don't follow the comment, if you know who edited your thread, why not just follow up with them asking them for a more thorough explanation versus letting this all build to the point where we seem to be today? This sort of thing is generally not that big of a deal and is meant to keep the board moving and functional, while maintaining certain parameters... Not to punish well intended members here...

It's pretty rare that I have edited a thread of someone else's without leaving a comment of some sort, actually... So it begs the question, which thread are you speaking about? Perhaps if we look at the specific case we can avoid some of these hasty generalizations; part of what you're saying is too cryptic for me to respond to with anything meaningful…

I do know that when I edited one of your threads, under the false pretenses that it contained some very sensitive data, that I responded and you & I had an offline discussion on the matter as well. That particular discussion, alone, seems to fly in the face of what you are saying you notice as consistent behavior here.

In fact, there's nothing to really say I have to comment on any post I edit, at all. When I remove spam or delete accidental duplicate posts I sure don't, why would I explain to a spammer that I am deleting their spam?!

The only reason I do leave comments on edited posts, is out of common courtesy for our members here, or etiquette, if you will.

Regards,
Nate Oliver
MrExcel.com Forum Admin

 

[kyrgan]

Nate said: I moved this thread here because this is clearly where it belongs. Note that the Lounge is "A place to chat." You know, like light banter, jokes, debates of sorts, etc... Questioning the etiquette of the Forum's Moderators and Admin is nothing of the sort, so it doesn't belong there.

Okay, I can live with that. I do have to ask, where does it mention type of discussions permitted or not permitted per forum in the ToS or Forum guidelines?

Nate said: As your question seems to be directed at Moderators and Admin, this forum suffices nicely for this thread.

My question was not solely directed at admins/moderators. I was intended to generate discussion among all users. But, mostly I would like let mods and admins know that the apparent willy nilly capriciousness to edit posts, without letting the user understand what is going on is not really all that appreciated.

From the link http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?p=500919#500919:
The moderating, support and other teams reserve the right to edit or remove any post at any time. The determination of what is construed as indecent, vulgar, spam, etc. as noted in these points is up to moderators and administrators, not users.

Again, I can agree with the concept and the various reasons why such things need to be that way. That makes perfect sense, but it does not excuse the mod/admin from simple courtesy. When someone edits a legitimate post that has a problem, without at least giving the user an idea of what the problem is, in my opinion, a detriment to this board and its operators.

Nate edited a posting to show:
Edited by Nate: Html blew up the thread. Please post a smaller sample, and make sure your Html has closing tags. Thanks.

What I have an issue with when a post is edited and no mention other than, and I quote”
[HTML removed by admin]. Now the post that had the redacted HTML also had a preface HTML that was not removed. When the message was posted all the HTML appeared correct in the preview and the actual forum message (I NEVER trust the preview fwiw.) What buggers me about the whole thing was there was no mention of why the second table was removed, nor any offer of assistance as to the resolution to the issue. Someone took the time to read the message, discern there was something amiss to the HTML and remove with just a curt message about removing the HTML. No bother was made to actually provide some guidance or assistance. Had there been a message like you provided in your posting example I would not be whining to such a degree.

Nate goes on to say:
I do know that when I edited one of your threads, under the false pretenses that it contained some very sensitive data, that I responded and you & I had an offline discussion on the matter as well. That particular discussion, alone, seems to fly in the face of what you are saying you notice as consistent behavior here.

That was PERFECT and ideal. I had not a problem with your decision and judgment given the information you had. I do recommend an addendum to the ToS or Forum rule regarding SSN’s.

Alas, I never said it was a consistent behavior, it just is. The issue may lie with the admin/moderator not fully understanding the repercussions of their actions. Even you must agree, a post like yours compared to “[HTML removed by admin]” Is a hell of a lot better, and even helps the user understand what happened and makes it less likely they are going to make the same mistake again. True?

Naid said: In fact, there's nothing to really say I have to comment on any post I edit, at all. When I remove spam or delete accidental duplicate posts I sure don't, why would explain to a spammer that I am deleting their spam?!

I don’t believe I or anyone is expecting an admin to respond to someone who is a spammer or obviously going against the ToS and Forum guideline. That is not what I am complaining about. My issue is the somewhat less than helpful nature of editing a legitimate post without leaving the user a clue as to who or why.

Nate, Thank you for attention and guidance.

 

[NateO]

Hello again,

Okay, I can live with that. I do have to ask, where does it mention type of discussions permitted or not permitted per forum in the ToS or Forum guidelines?

The intent of the individual forum, for all of forums, is described beneath the forum name, in every case. We force the location of each thread by the nature of the thread. If you're not sure, then contact a Moderator/Administrator, or prepare for the fact that your post may be moved.

My question was not solely directed at admins/moderators. I was intended to generate discussion among all users. But, mostly I would like let mods and admins know that the apparent willy nilly capriciousness to edit posts, without letting the user understand what is going on is not really all that appreciated.

Speaking of not appreciated, I'm not sure your referring to any Moderators or Admins decisions they make with specific posts, and we're talking about a lot of posts, as 'willy nilly' is appreciated, at all. In fact, I can tell you for a fact, it's not. Do you mind my asking how you are qualified to make such a statement?

You wanted to start a debate about the decisions and actions of Moderators and Admin, here, in general? Well, that's against the rules, too. This is the third time I will reference them tonight in one of your threads! Here they are, again:

http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?p=500919#500919

Note:

- The moderating, support and other teams reserve the right to edit or remove any post at any time.
{snip}

- Also remember that any discussion of these rules is to be held through the moderator(s) or administrator(s) via private message, and not on the forums themselves.
{snip}

When I asked you to apprise yourself of our rules, that you agree to, simply by posting, I meant have a working knowledge of them before submitting any further posts to the board...

If need be, I can rewrite the way that rule reads, for the sake of clarification.

Again, I can agree with the concept and the various reasons why such things need to be that way. That makes perfect sense, but it does not excuse the mod/admin from simple courtesy. When someone edits a legitimate post that has a problem, without at least giving the user an idea of what the problem is, in my opinion, a detriment to this board and its operators.

Again, this is not required of our Moderators or Admin. You've all ready agreed to this, simply by posting here. If you feel you have not agreed to this then we need to revisit your posting status, here.

Still, while it is not required, can you provide an example of where this courtesy has not been extended? I truly believe that most of us typically do extend this courtesy... But, remember, this is a courtesy.

What I have an issue with when a post is edited and no mention other than, and I quote”
[HTML removed by admin]. Now the post that had the redacted HTML also had a preface HTML that was not removed. When the message was posted all the HTML appeared correct in the preview and the actual forum message (I NEVER trust the preview fwiw.) What buggers me about the whole thing was there was no mention of why the second table was removed, nor any offer of assistance as to the resolution to the issue. Someone took the time to read the message, discern there was something amiss to the HTML and remove with just a curt message about removing the HTML. No bother was made to actually provide some guidance or assistance. Had there been a message like you provided in your posting example I would not be whining to such a degree.

I have just explained to you why you are getting this generic message.

Someone (you?) posted a huge amount of HTML with no closing tags, and it has literally corrupted the thread in appearance and functionality and the HTML needed to be removed. We are simply trying to correct the issue, not persecute you.

Again, contacting a Moderator or Admin during confusing times like this makes a lot of sense, versus calling us all out, in a public forum.

That was PERFECT and ideal. I had not a problem with your decision and judgment given the information you had. I do recommend an addendum to the ToS or Forum rule regarding SSN’s.

Alas, I never said it was a consistent behavior, it just is. The issue may lie with the admin/moderator not fully understanding the repercussions of their actions. Even you must agree, a post like yours compared to “[HTML removed by admin]” Is a hell of a lot better, and even helps the user understand what happened and makes it less likely they are going to make the same mistake again. True?

Well, the thread in question was far from perfect or ideal... But it was my mistake, so I took the extra time to try to handle it, with etiquette. But I wouldn't normally pour in, what 45 minutes on a thread that appears to require modification? I mean, there's not enough time in the day for that...

Again, if you have questions about why a post was edited by a Moderator or Admin, then PM AdminMsg.

I agree with your recommendation about mentioning our serious distaste for sensitive data in the rules. But in my mind, this comes back to common sense...

Actual SSNs is only one form of data we don't want to see here, that list goes on and on and on, TINs, Liscense Plate Numbers, VINs, Credit Card numbers, etc... I haven't gotten around to amending the rules, yet. But I will, and in the interim, keep the following in mind:

http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?p=500919#500919

The moderating, support and other teams reserve the right to edit or remove any post at any time.

This is living document, we modify it all the time, and guess who modifies it? Again, we don't write these rules to persecute our members, but to document the parameters we want our forum to run within without putting undo hardship on anyone. At the same time, let's be reasonable, we're not drafting a 40,000 page all-inclusive document that covers every potential area that a Moderator or Admin might need to make a decision on. In such cases the Moderator or Admin will do so.

Don't over complicate this. While we appreciate our members and their opinions, this is not a democracy, there's plenty of gray area out there and our Moderators and Admins are going to make tough calls, here. And 90% of the time they will be right, like it or not. If you disagree, again, PM AdminMsg

I don’t believe I or anyone is expecting an admin to respond to someone who is a spammer or obviously going against the ToS and Forum guideline. That is not what I am complaining about. My issue is the somewhat less than helpful nature of editing a legitimate post without leaving the user a clue as to who or why.

Nate, Thank you for attention and guidance.

You're welcome. But note, there were two major clues presented to you:

1) An Admin removed it
2) There was an issue with the HTML

If you were to PM AdminMsg, I could have given you the reason for the issue within a few seconds of receiving it, and would have been happy to do so!

Regards,
Nate Oliver
MrExcel.com Forum Admin

 

[Von Pookie]

To add onto the HTML issue:

Now the post that had the redacted HTML also had a preface HTML that was not removed. When the message was posted all the HTML appeared correct in the preview and the actual forum message (I NEVER trust the preview fwiw.)

The reason for the first HTML example being left alone while the second is removed is simple: that second example is the one screwing up the page.

If you thought it looked correct, well, it wasn't. It's quite obvious when a post with HTML code isn't correct, even. If displaying correctly the end of your post--the part of the table where the 'profile,' 'PM' and other buttons are located--will be displayed correctly:Example

If the HTML code in your post is cut off, you get something like this: Example
This is the type of thing that would result from your second example being incomplete and force its removal from the post.

I would suggest reading the HTML Maker FAQ which contains the following:

I followed the directions, but after posting the page is not displaying correctly.

You can either edit the post yourself and remove ALL of the HTML code, or report the post by clicking the "Report" button () on the post to notify the moderators of the problem. A moderator will edit the post to remove any/all HTML Maker code so the thread will be able to display correctly.

Our 'job' is to keep the board going which includes removing bad HTML examples so the thread can be read in the first place, not to correct the actual content of your posts for you.

In short: we have a very busy message board here, and many posts on a daily basis to patrol. We have our ways of doing things, and we will do them as such. If you have questions about something, ask one of us--whining about it doesn't much help your case.

Sending a PM to the AdminMsg username will notify all the admins that there is a message, though there's no telling which one of us will be responding.

 

[Mark O'Brien]

Think of all the posts that could have been editted by the admins with perfect documentation instead of responding to this thread.

I haven't seen a thread like this in a few years on this board since the mass exodus to OzGrid.

Good stuff.