# WHY!



## blondiechick (Oct 17, 2006)

Why is it, that every guy I meet is a COMPLETE *******. Why can't there be at least ONE decent guy that I will come in contact with. It is so upsetting.


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## Pyromantic (Oct 17, 2006)

Have you tried running a debug ?


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## JamieDuncan (Oct 17, 2006)

pyromantic this isnt the ask a stupid question thread   

although now i think it qualifies

blondiechick:not all men are that bad, most are just stupid like me


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## onlyadrafter (Oct 17, 2006)

blondiechick

have you tried going to different places?


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## Bob Rooney (Oct 17, 2006)

Always try to see the glass as half full, not half-empty.  From your post, it may be completely empty.    

Have you been dating Darren Sherman by any chance?

http://prdifferently.typepad.com/my_weblog/2006/07/how_not_to_act_.html


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## litrelord (Oct 17, 2006)

because if you met a 'nice' guy you wouldn't give him the time of day?


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## blondiechick (Oct 18, 2006)

yeah. I have been different places. 

Guys just don't approach me. I work, go to school and go to the gym. Actually, I would give a nice guy the time and day, because nice guys have morals, and so do I. Guys here don't possess that. The last two relationships I have been in, I had to break apart, because they were just going too far. This other guy I met, well he turned out to be a fake, and he played me just a bit with this stupid words. BASTARD. sorry, about that. I just had to get it out. 

I don't approach guys, because how would I know if they are assholes like the rest. Is there a way you can tell? I like this one guy who I see at the gym, but I don't know anything about him. Usually, when I do get to know the person, I begin to start caring, as if its automatic. My problem is I care too much.

It just sucks! One of my best friends told me not to date, because I am young and its no fun having to be tied up with someone. In some cases, yeah he is right. In other cases, its a great feeling caring about someone who isn't related to you. 

Maybe I am just crazy.

Yeah. Probably.


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## litrelord (Oct 18, 2006)

> Is there a way you can tell?



No, and if there was it would be boring because you wouldn't have anything to discover about each other.  All men are selfish swine, it's in our genes.  On the other hand all women are psycho stalker types.  Just wait until you come across someone who makes you feel so good you don't care that he's not perfect and hopefully he'll feel the same about you.

P.S. Don't listen to me by the way, I just came out of a 5 year relationship so I'm bitter and twisted


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## MarkAndrews (Oct 18, 2006)

> yeah. I have been different places.
> 
> Guys just don't approach me. I work, go to school and go to the gym. Actually, I would give a nice guy the time and day, because nice guys have morals, and so do I. Guys here don't possess that. The last two relationships I have been in, I had to break apart, because they were just going too far. This other guy I met, well he turned out to be a fake, and he played me just a bit with this stupid words. BASTARD. sorry, about that. I just had to get it out.
> 
> ...



Not all guys are the same   

Although it's difficult to contrast being in a different country


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## Doug.T (Oct 18, 2006)

You'll have a better crop of men to pick from at the Excel User Conference. 
If you can't find a decent man there then all is lost.

October 25/27th, 2006
Marina del Rey Hotel
Marina del Rey, CA 

http://www.exceluserconference.com/WCEUC.html


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## erik.van.geit (Oct 18, 2006)

Hi,

just my two euros ...

1. you might consider uploading your AVATAR 
(and of course subscribe to DRAFT at the same time  :wink: )
2. it might be good to ask admin to change your nickname

both are not the "real things" you should do in fact, but are a reflection of what you think about yourself

you were made a nice person from the beginning
some facts can destroy parts of this "good girl"
your responsability is to ... (fill in yourself, else I would be preaching)

kind regards,
Erik


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## blondiechick (Oct 18, 2006)

I dated one guy... and I had to break up with him, because I felt as if he did destory me. He made me go through **** that I didn't approve. I was stupid, and young. This was 3 years ago when I was in high school. I still feel like **** and even though those 3 years have passed. It was the first guy I ever dated, and I thought I had to do what he wanted to do. From then on, I was like HOLD ON. What the hell is wrong with me, why did I let this *** pressure and push me into things that were childish and stupid. 

I don't think highly of myself, because then I would have an ego. I can't stand people with egos. They think they are tough ****, and I am like you have no idea how stupid you are looking. So I am basically on the ground, meaning... I know what I can do and what I can't do, as in getting places. 

As for the avatar! ALl I can say is that I am ugly. I don't like putting pictures of myself on the internet, because I am not pretty in any way.


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## Pyromantic (Oct 19, 2006)

> ALl I can say is that I am ugly.



If I had 50p everytime a pretty girl said that, Bill gates would only wish he had it half as good as me!!

To be honest, it sounds like you're suffering with a little bit of low-self esteem. Don't beat yourself up about everything, you needn't worry so much. I method I found to help me through the day when I felt so horribly single was to try and forget about the issue completely. Weirdly the opposite sex and always sense the desperation and run a mile. As soon as I stopped caring about the opposite sex and focusing on my career and met loads of really nice people.


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 19, 2006)

> I don't like putting pictures of myself on the internet, because I am not pretty in any way.



It certainly didn't stop Truby, so you'd be in good company   


Love ya really, Greg!    :wink:


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## Joe4 (Oct 19, 2006)

Here is an interesting observation I have made...

I have lived in Washington, DC and have friends/family that live in New York City and Boston.  In now live in a small city in Western New York (I returned to the place where I went to college).

Most of my family and friends in the big city had a harder time starting "serious" relationships with people.  Sure, there is a bigger pool of people, but many seemed to be completely career driven, or there for the night life action (and hence not looking to settle down anytime soon).  About half of these people got married in their 30's, while the other half are still single.

On the other hand, most of my friends who live in the smaller cities/towns found their spouse and got married in their twenties.

So whenever my families/friends in the big city complain about not finding any decent people, I tell them if they are impatient, then move out of the big cities!

Just one man's observations...


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## Greg Truby (Oct 19, 2006)

Blondie,

One finds shelf after shelf of books in the bookstore dedicated to this subject.  But, in all honesty, this thread really does contain some good advice. Per Joe (jm14) and drafter, maybe you do need to look in other places.  Doug's idea of attending an Excel Users' conference really is not all that bad of an idea.  You're going to meet geeks and/or financial types.  Probably college educated and probably gainfully employed.  

Erik's advice of posting your picture is not that bad either.  If you ain't the prettiest little girl to ever step on the dance floor, so be it.   Get comfortable with your self image.  Do what you can to improve it -- education is a great help for that.  But the garden would be empty if only the prettiest flower were there and the forest quiet if only the best-singing songbird sung.  Like Scholler says - bein' uglier'n south end of a north-bound mule never stopped me.

You say you go to the gym.  That is terrific!  Keep that up!  It makes you feel better (endorphins) and it makes you feel better about yourself.  And if you did get short-suited in the looks department, better to at least have a decent bod, right?  Especially as you move on into your twenties and then thirties [and eventually your forties] you'll be glad you kept in shape.

As for ego: your comments do reveal your youth.  As you get older you realize that the "big dogs" are pretty laid back.  By and large it's the little dogs that yap a lot.  Same holds true with guys: generally speaking excessive ego is an overcompensation for a dude feeling inadequate about himself in some area (not always, some guys *really* do think they're God's Gift to Women - but you can usually see them coming from a ways off). 

Litrelord's comment of "all men are selfish swine" only misses the mark by a little bit.  All men are selfish swine to some degree.  Some very selfish, some pretty self-less, but still a little bit selfish. None of us is perfect.  You just have to find a guy with a combination of faults that you can live with.  And all women _are_ controlling wenches to some degree.  Some are clever and subtle about how they try to "fix" their hubbies and some are overbearing shrews where us other guys pity the fool.  But I'd estimate +90% of women that have been married ten years are less are actively trying to fix _something_ about their husband.  After 10-12 years of marriage they start to finally catch on that some flaws in their husband are just gonna be their burden in life.

So, just take your time and find that feller with a degree of imperfection you can tolerate.  Sometimes it might take you a while to figure out which guys are jerks and you need to "cut your line" and cast again.  But sooner or later you'll find a decent chap.  Just as there are pinheads in the world, there are decent lads out there too.

Well, my morning break is over, time to get back to pumping some numbers in Excel!  Hope this helped in some way.


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## Asala42 (Oct 20, 2006)

tips:

1) Walk up to a guy at the gym,
2) Say "Hey is it ok if I work in a set?"
3) ???
4) profit! (unless the guy's a jerk)

repeat until you find me


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## hatman (Oct 20, 2006)

Blondie: look at my avatar.  Not only am I less attractive than Greg, but I am also a Bigger Geek and a Bigger Freak.  The dating scene did not work for me.  The dating scene destroyed my self-esteem, because the dating scene focusses on our most shallow attributes.

I married my best friend.  She is exactly the opposite of the waifish ideals that are pushed on us by the media.  She is beautiful.  Her beauty radiates from inside, and anyone who spends 30 seconds with her can see it.  I have met many women in my life who are more beautiful than any model, yet would never win a beauty pageant because they do not satisfy the UNHEALTHY and UNREALISTIC ideals that are pushed upon us by the media.

Greg's advice about going to the gym is excellent, but I wish to add a caveat: do not destroy your health or your self-esteem trying to force your body to match an ideal it was probably never meant to fulfill... if you are trying to look like one of the popular teen icons: forget it THAT ISN"T HEALTHY FOR *ANYONE*.  If you think you are ugly because you do not match those ideals, then you are openning yourself to men who are interested in women who are shallow, and they are shallow themselves... they will hurt you because they do not realize there is anything under your exterior... they won't care.  The men who are worth dating will shy away from you if you are focussed on your own surface attributes.

My advice is to be yourself.  Be honest with yourself so others can see your honesty.  Cultivate your inner beauty, and allow it to enhance your outer beauty.  Don't look for a date: look for interesting people.  Interesting people stay in your life... cherish them, and don't wonder if it will become something more.  If the connection is real, it will become something more all on it's own, without any help.  And lastly: don't stop giving all.  That is what a relationship is all about: give what you wish to receive: everything.  When it is right, the other person will freely give back the same.  Don't expect them to: allow them to do what they are comfortable doing.


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## Greg Truby (Oct 20, 2006)

Good addendum on the gym thing there, Paul.  I was coming at it from the point of view of a guy that used to weigh 220 lbs and through a decade and a half-long program of junk food and lots of TV, a three-packs-a-week smoking habit and too many video games, got up to 365 pounds.  Quit smoking 'bout a year and a half ago and since then I've been working very, very hard to get down to a waifish 250 lbs.  So I was only thinking of going to the gym in terms of a healthy way to improve one's well-being.  Plus I work out at the YMCA where it's mostly a bunch of other old married folks also trying to undo years of bad habits.  So I failed to remember that a young woman can get duped into trying to look like the images we see in the media.  And, with that, I'll bid you "au revoir" since it's "leg night" for me at the Y - woohoo - I just *love* squats! (seriously )


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## Todd Bardoni (Oct 20, 2006)

> ALl I can say is that I am ugly.



Some guys are into that.  

But look, everybody has different tastes.  No one, not even Brad Pitt, is attractive to everyone...so don't put yourslef down like that.  secondly, nothing is more unattractive than self-deprication.  Get yourself an ego..it's ok to feel good about yourself and to believe your attarctive, smart and funny.


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## blondiechick (Oct 22, 2006)

Thanks everyone for your input. = ) it helps me alot. You explain more with detail than my friends. 

There are people who I know who are in their early 20's that are married. But there are people who I know that are 25-28 who are not married, and they are single. I guess I feel left out, because everyone is happily married talking about how great their life is with their husband or wife. I hate when I hear them talking about it. It kinda sickens me because I never felt like that, and I feel as if I will never get the chance. lol. Guys don't give girls like me a chance, only assholes give girls like me pain. 

I guess you are right. I shouldn't look for a date. I think the reason why I am looking for a date is to forget about my last failure. But when I did, the guy turned out to be just like the first person I ever date. Now, we don't talk anymore. Yeah, guys just shut me out like that. I guess I just have to have patience. Everyone says you have to be friends before you date. I should start livign up to that.. because if nothing works out exs never speak to each other anymore. I would rather have a friend than an ex.

I don't think I could ever walk up to a guy who i like at the gym. I just don't have that abiltiy. I always wait to be spoken to. I don't like making any moves. He may think something else or, he might think what the hell does this stupid girl who is weak want. *sign* 

I really don't want a relationship... but then again I do. How else can I forget about something that I do not wish to remember? The memory won't seem to fade no matter what I do. I am stuck.

I have a small ego... I think. one day, I hope to be this awesome poet! lol, that will never happen. But, I always think that of which i write is something incrediable. But, its not of course. My mind just wants to think that. I am not attractive though, I wish I could think that, because then I wouldnt have trouble talking to anyone i come in contact with. 

Thanks again = )


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## Joe4 (Oct 22, 2006)

You sound like most people in their early 20's, confused about relationships, themselves, and what they want to do in life.  Give yourself time to figure things out, you can't rush it.  

Learn to make yourself happy, and you'll be surprised to see that people will naturally be drawn to you (nothing scares off people faster than people who seem like they need other people to make them happy).  

And lastly, don't compare yourself to others.  Nothing good can come out of it, you will only weaken your own ego and despise others.  Simply try to become the best person you can be.


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## NateO (Oct 22, 2006)

Hello,

A few thoughts, since you do seem to be concerned about this...

1) An ego is not inherently a bad thing. If you don't appreciate yourself, you're going to have a hard time appreciating others. I'm not saying being an obnoxious narcissist is a good thing, but somewhere in the middle is healthy, in my estimation.

2) Are all guys a-holes? Statistically improbable. Sure, some are, there's probably a normal distribution on this sort of thing... But, keep in mind that men and women are different, for a bunch of reasons, see the following for one woman's take on our differences:

http://webfoot.com/advice/women.in.eng.html

Is she far off, generally speaking? Probably not... In fact, she's trying to think like a man, note the following:



> Do not walk into your boss' office, throw a hissy fit, and say that you need new furniture NOW! Negative style points.


Negative style points? That's something I would say... Typical male, sports-related analogy... I might have said "Negative Bonus Points", but close enough... 

We're different animals, due to physiological differences and the way we are raised. I noticed it in a conversation with a friend the other day (which I will tone down, but essentially the same conversation):



> Her: Oh, she's in a bad mood.
> Me: Really? What's she angry about?
> Her: She's not angry, she's in a bad mood.
> Me: Erm, there's a difference?
> ...


Now that's not always true, if something really tragic happens, I feel remorse, etc... But, 95% of the time bad mood = anger. I get the feeling this isn't the case with women... I've noticed it with my parents, too, e.g., what would make my Mum sad, would infuriate my Old Man, different animals...

Dating shouldn't be the equivalent of an anchor, i.e., tied down to anything... A first date isn't marriage, theoretically, this should be fun! Go out and have some fun, get a unique dinner, catch a movie, do something different, do something the same, etc... 

Who cares what the guy at the gym is thinking when you say hello, it's not like you walked up and stomped him in the jewels. I learned some time ago to concern myself with what I can control, and this is out of your hands. Say hello, and if he's a goofball, then move along. 

And, it could be worse! Keep in mind, if men don't work out, you could try dating women... And if you do, please post back here, with the results!!


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## Smitty (Oct 22, 2006)

> No one, not even Brad Pitt, is attractive to everyone...so don't put yourslef down like that. secondly, nothing is more unattractive than self-deprication. Get yourself an ego..it's ok to feel good about yourself and to believe your attarctive, smart and funny.



Yes it absolutely is OK to feel good about yourself, and the reason I quoted Todd (sorry bud), is that self-deprecation is not (even if you're with friends who have the balls to get you out of it).

I've watched my boss (a 6' 5", Southern California Quarterback of the Year with John Elway) struggle for years with absolutely beautiful women who had no soul.  Invariably, the relationship always fell/fall apart (you can tell, give or take a few days when it will happen - $10,000 vacation - OK, bets are on boys - It'll be done by the time they're off the plane!) 

He looks for the outer package, whereas other folks, more down to earth, look for the inner package.  My Boss fell into the old trap that my Dad described to me when I was a wee lad (one that many here know): "Beauty may only be skin deep son, but ugly goes to the bone".

Apparently, neither the boss or my Dad have learned that lesson yet.  

So, yes, men are pigs, we all are, and we all want one thing (and breakfast too). 

I never thought I would find someone like my wife, nor she me, and she's a beautiful blonde who let people's opinions of her guide her in college from where she was an athlete, to becoming a plump woman, who tried to attract as little attention from men as possible.  She's been trying for the past few years to get back in shape because I've encouraged her to be who _she_ is and wants to be, not what I or _other people_ want her to be.

If you're lucky you'll find someone (if male no pictures please, if females pictures please (yes, we are pigs!)), but don't press yourself!  Anyone can be a sport F%^&er.  Frankly I think that's demeaning for both, and saw enough in college to make me sick, and I was a Lacrosse player!

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and it has to start with you.  ****ty self-confidence will let people take advantage of you, and if you're there, you won't even know it.  Find what's good about you and relish it!  Enjoy it!  Take advantage of it!

I've helped you enough on the Board to sense that you're impatient and don't plan ahead or time manage well.  A great deal of that comes from a lack of confidence in yourself.  So how about setting some serious goals for yourself, little ones, short term ones, then long term, just not narcissistic goals...I think you'll find that they're surprisingly doable and each little step will seem like a milestone.  Each one will give you a new sense of purpose and more importantly, a sense of belief in yourself.

Mine's learning to type, which seems pretty small after learning to walk again.

Take care and find a way to feel good about yourself!  If you don't, no one else will!

Smitty


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## blondiechick (Oct 22, 2006)

I agree with you. I told a few people who I work with that guys are pigs. They of course were guys, and next thing you know it, they said that I was sexist. THat kinda pissed me off, because I am not. But anyways, my friend said the same thing about self-confidence. He said that guys will pick those girls out because they are easy to mess with and destroy. He was right, I just wish I knew him 3 years ago, but he went to a different school, and we met in college last year. 

I am trying to manage my time more efficiently. It’s hard and all because I am still upset about the stupid guy who played me a few weeks ago. I have a hard time letting things go. I am an emotional person when it comes to stuff like this.

I am also having a hard time because of my ex. I wish I never broke up with him, because I think he was one of the nice guys. His problem was just lack of communication and I though I was losing him, so I had to end it. Did I do the right thing? He would never call me, and I was the one always calling him. 

Thanks for your replies = )


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## Joe4 (Oct 22, 2006)

Just be careful not to fall into the trap of using generalities and lumping everyone together (if you use words like "all" or "none", i.e. "all guys are pigs").  

That displays a close-minded approach, where you have already pre-judged people before you meet them.  That kind of attitude will not get you where you want to go.  

There are definitely "trends" and "patterns", but realize there will always be exceptions.  Everyone is an individual, and should be treated as such, and not pre-judged (just as how you would want people to treat you).


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## MarkAndrews (Oct 23, 2006)

> I agree with you. I told a few people who I work with that guys are pigs. They of course were guys, and next thing you know it, they said that I was sexist. THat kinda pissed me off, because I am not. But anyways, my friend said the same thing about self-confidence. He said that guys will pick those girls out because they are easy to mess with and destroy. He was right, I just wish I knew him 3 years ago, but he went to a different school, and we met in college last year.
> 
> I am trying to manage my time more efficiently. It’s hard and all because I am still upset about the stupid guy who played me a few weeks ago. I have a hard time letting things go. I am an emotional person when it comes to stuff like this.
> 
> ...



You just need to keep your chin up! Easier said than done from personal experiences

You have plenty of time to find the right person IMO


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## Asala42 (Oct 23, 2006)

> I don't think I could ever walk up to a guy who i like at the gym. I just don't have that abiltiy. I always wait to be spoken to. I don't like making any moves. He may think something else or, he might think what the hell does this stupid girl who is weak want. *sign*



I'd like to point out that most guys would kill to have a woman initiate conversation with them.  Well - it would make our day at least.  Hey we have ego issues too you know!    Ok here's an easy excercise  

At the gym start doing a few light weightlifting excercises if you haven't been doing so already (like 2-3 times a week).  That kind of excercise is already a confidence builder on it's own btw.  Anyway sooner or later some guy will be on a machine you want to use, so just say something like:  "Hey can I work in a set?"...or "Do you have a lot more to go?".  90% of the time, no matter what he thinks of you, he'll say "yeah no problem!".  If he starts talking with you more - great.  If not, well congratulations anyway - you just talked to a guy!  

Ta-da!


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## Greg Truby (Oct 23, 2006)

Blondie,

This seems so obvious as to be impossible to miss, but nonetheless, I'm going to point it out just in case it has escaped your notice (which - if it did - I'll attribute you your youth).  Have you noticed the quality of the responses you received by posting your question in the lounge of an Excel forum?  

Tnis is a forum frequented by geeks and demi-geeks (of all ages).  Have you picked up on the general attributes of us geeks yet?  Re-read this thread and other threads in the lounge and in the main forums and you can see that by-and-large this place is full of kind, thoughtful, generous, helpful, and courteous men. (Not that we don't get a few pinheads; but they generally don't hang around here for very long.)  The responses that your post received here validate this assertion.  

So, if you seek men with the characteristics you found here, look for them in places like here, i.e. places that geeks tend to hang out; customized to your age.  Maybe get a girlfriend to go with you to a renaissance festival or something of the like. 

Regards,


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## Todd Bardoni (Oct 24, 2006)

Speak for yourself, geek...I'm no geek.  Then again, I'm one of the pin-heads you speak of...

Anyway, Blondie...you are obviously angry and depressed.  I can tell by your responses and the catastrophic words you use.  Go to a counsellor.  He will help you, as Smitty said, set and attain goals to improve your obviously non-existent self-esteem.  there's not much you can do about the past and you will in time realize that...not just mentally, but emotionally as well.  Until then, you just have to accept that for the next several months you're going to have some emotional pain.  But you'll have to bite the bullet, charge forward, and shake the dust off once you ram through that wall you've constructed.


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## gingerafro (Oct 24, 2006)

Greg has made an incredibly good (and arguably the best) comment on this thread.


> Have you noticed the quality of the responses you received by posting your question in the lounge of an Excel forum?



blondiechick, this is a conversation.  We may not all be looking at each other, but this is what it is.  And you are good at it.

Please let me tell you about something called Maslow's Hierachy of needs.  We all have needs and once our basic needs are fulfilled, we move to the next level.

Here is the list of levels.
1. Biological and Physiological needs - air, food, drink, shelter, warmth, sleep, etc. 

2. Safety needs - protection from elements, security, order, law, limits, stability, etc. 

3. Belongingness and Love needs - work group, family, affection, relationships, etc. 

4. Esteem needs - self-esteem, achievement, mastery, independence, status, dominance, prestige, managerial responsibility, etc. 

5. Self-Actualization needs - realising personal potential, self-fulfillment, seeking personal growth and peak experiences

The theory is as follows:
If your needs at a certain level are not fulfilled you cannot get to the next level.  
ie,You can't motivate someone to achieve their sales target (level 4) when they're having problems with their marriage (level 3).
You can't expect someone to work as a team member (level 3) when they're having their house re-possessed (level 2).

Therefore, the bottom needs need to sorted (sort the marriage out / get the house back) and then move on.

This theory can apply to different parts of your life. eg going to the gym.
1. Have the gear to go to the gym
2. Know that you won't get hurt by going
3. By going regularly, you 'belong' to the gym.  Maybe smile at other regulars or say hello. Its easy
4. Now you feel better about yourself for going. You have self esteem. Others say how well you are doing. "Another 10 seconds of a 5k? Well Done"
5. Then you are ready to better yourself and be pleased with yourself.

So, work out where you are.  Sort the bits of your life that stop you from moving on.  Believe in the bits of you that are good.  You are good at conversations. You do go to the gym. You like Excel. These things will radiate to others.

You only came out of high school 3 years ago.  You are still very young so don't worry about getting married yet. Don't put pressure on yourself because there is no need to.

Hang out here.  Improving your excel skills is certainly one way of moving up the pyramid and you will be having converations with many genuine people.


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## Cbrine (Oct 25, 2006)

Blondie,

 Coming from someone who lost a friend recently that was a direct result of a bad ending to a relationship,  Take Todd's advice.


*Go to a counsellor. * 

Can't hurt, and it might help.

Cal

PS-10 years from now you will be looking back at this time and wondering what the heck you were worried about, although it may not seem like it now.


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## blondiechick (Oct 25, 2006)

Yeah, I have been told that jm14 not to fall in to that trap. It cost me once, there was this nice guy and I turned him against me because I was bashing guys every time. He couldn't stand it anymore, so he doesnt talk to me anymore. 

I actually started doing light weight lifting exericses last month. Before, I would do cardio to the extreme, then I decided... well I want to get toned and some what musclar, but not that obivious. Its kinda embarassing though, because here I am lifting 15 pounds for this dumbbell exericse, when I see guys doing 50+. I don't let it get to me though, plus I can't hear if they are saying anything mean because I have my music! lol! I don't think I would everrr go up to a guy and ask to do a set. Mostly, because I would embarass myself, and the guy might think I am trying to hard. Guys here.... are stuck up, so I really don't know what to expect from anyone. 

I know  the guys on this board are kind, thoughtful and everything you described. I wish there I could find guys like that here! I guess guys in their early 20's are confused.. or something, I don't know what it is. Plus! All the nice guys are taken, because they are sweethearts and girls will choose them over a bad stupid guy anyday. 

I am not depressed. Just angry. I am emotional and I hate it, but I let things get to me. I know things will get better. Its just this excel class is one of the hardest classes I have taken so far. I wish I could be totally awesome with it, but I guess I will never get it. I don't think I need a counsellor. I really don't like expressing myself in front of people. I usually write things for that, hoping that one day.. I will have my poems published. lol. Its a pipedream! lol. Thats what I think from time to time. 10 years ago i will be like what the heck, WHY did I even care about that stupid thing!

I looked over the Maslows Hierachy of needs. i never saw that before. Thanks. I should follow that, because I actually believe it. I just hope that I can improve my skills in excel. I really am not good at math, so I see excel as this evil program because usually you use it for numbers. Even when I complete the assignement, I have to use a calculator just to make sure its right. That is how much of a loser I am. 

Thanks so much for all your replies!  You guys are so awesome and great.


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## Todd Bardoni (Oct 25, 2006)

I don't know what your idea of depression is, so let me be clear:- anger = depression...and you are definitely angry, or, in other words, depressed.  Most cousellors would describe depression as anger turned inwards.  And when you write words such as "destroy", and "bash" and "sickens" it is so obvious you have a lot of internal anger.  If you don't take care of it, it'll only get worse.

Take care of yourself.  Because if you can't take care of yourself, how do you expect to be able to take care of a boyfriend, husband, or relationship?


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## blondiechick (Oct 25, 2006)

Can't people deal with it themselves? I never thought of depression as being anger turned inwards, but it does make sense. I don't really write about bash and things like that- just heartbreak. 

When I was dating someone a few months ago, I was able to take care of him, even though we did not click. I usually care for people rather than myself, and I think that is a mistake right there.


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## Joe4 (Oct 25, 2006)

> I guess guys in their early 20's are confused.. or something, I don't know what it is. Plus! All the nice guys are taken, because they are sweethearts and girls will choose them over a bad stupid guy anyday.



Be careful, you are falling into that generality trap again!  Many *people* in their early 20's are confused (it sounds like you are pretty confused yourself).

If you really believed all the nice guys are taken, then why would you even try, as it would be a fruitless endeavor?  I don't really think you believe this, or else you wouldn't have posted this.  That doesn't mean that finding the right person will be easy or quick, it probably won't be.  However, there are things you can do to help the process along, mainly by sorting through your own issues first.

Someone once told me, if you can't make yourself happy, don't expect someone else to make you happy.  Learn how to make yourself happy first, and the rest will come naturally.


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## blondiechick (Oct 25, 2006)

Someone told me that also. YOu can't make someone happy, they have to be happy themselves, and vice-versa. I decided not to date anyone now. I don't have time and I want to try and get this awesome body. lol. My brother told me I am weird, and I am turning into him, because I am obsessed with going to the gym. Anyways, I don't plan on getting married until I am 30, so its pointless to date now. I just miss that feeling when you are dating someone. Ick, it kinda makes me sick writing about it. But, that butterfly feeling you get when you are with someone.


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## MarkAndrews (Oct 26, 2006)

Enjoy being single while you still can


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## Andrew Fergus (Oct 26, 2006)

Going back to the subject of beauty - is it any wonder some people have a distorted view of beauty?  This short movie is very interesting :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knEIM16NuPg


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 26, 2006)

Andrew, I see you've let the cat out of the bag as to how you spend those 'efficiency gains' you were talking about in the OnlyADrafter thread...


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## Andrew Fergus (Oct 26, 2006)

Guilty as charged.....


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## Greg Truby (Oct 26, 2006)

Those who know me know that I just hate keeping a *lounge* thread "on track" this many posts in a row!  But here's some feedback on how to conduct yourself in the gym. <ul>[*]Lift with good form.[/list]That's it.  That's all you need worry about.  You're a *chick.*  Guys *expect* to be able to lift more than you!  Indeed, it can be a bit of a blow to their ego when a girl can outlift them.  Generally speaking that's seldom an issue on upper body work.  Men have a natural advantage.  The playing field is a lot leveler on isolation leg moves like hack squats, leg presses and leg extensions.  I'm not saying there are not women who can bench and curl some impressive weights, but these gals are rare and they know who they are, and you do not sound like one of them.

So back to you.  Focus on good form.  Do not worry about how much weight you lift _compared to other people._  Worry only about how much weight you are lifting _compared to yourself over time._  Are you improving on the number of reps? On the pounds your lifting?  I can squat some serious weight.  But the other day a guy that was obviously a powerlifter waltzed in and put me to shame!  If I worried about how much I did compared to everyone else that would depress me.  But instead, it motivated me.  I went up and talked to the guy and learned some tips.  Turned out he competes in strongman competitions and had been squatting seriously for over ten years.  In the end, rather than seeing the guy as a "competitor" (whom I could never hope to best anyway), I made a friend from whom I could learn.  So make friends with other women at the gym.  Make friends with old farts like me.  Don't spend all your gym time chatting (and, please, never sit on a piece of equipment and chat away while not using it).  But there's no reason not to at least be amiable.

I've also been itchin' to add a bit to what Paul (hatman) and I touched on earlier.  You need to find that happy area in the middle where you are focussing you workouts and diet on *healthy* body image objectives.  I'm also not going to gloss over the fact that looks do count for something in this world.  People are going to make some assumptions about you based on your appearance.  But if you have good hygiene, dress well and are in good physical condition, those assumptions are going to be positive.  Furthermore, in our junk-food laden society - unless your highly ectomorphic - it takes a pretty high level of self-discipline to maintain a good figure; whether you're a man or woman.  Going to the gym or regularly participating in some other sport that keeps you fit means that you have good habits & self-discipline and it's something other people do pick up on and a characteristic the attribute to you, whether they realize it or not.  Furthermore - *you* know the discipline it takes and this begins to shine through and that begins to impact other areas of your life.

So, if you don't feel like you can ask to work in on a machine with this guy you've been eying;  OK.  Personally, I thought that was good advice.  If the guy starts chatting with you as a result, hey, you're off and going.  If he just politely shares the equipment with you and that's it; then maybe he's already in a relationship, maybe he just isn't interested or maybe he's shy too.  Your challenge will be to suss out which; but at least you broke the ice.  And if he's rude or rolls his eyes about you working in, well now you know that you wouldn't want to go out with him anyway!

And best of luck with your Excel class.  We've noticed that you're getting some help in the questions forum.  We're always glad to help anyone that's working his or her tail off trying to learn Excel and having a spot of trouble.


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 26, 2006)

> Make friends with old farts like me
> ~Greg Truby



 older people do often provide a more measured and sensible outlook.  Experience in life counts for a lot.


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## NateO (Oct 26, 2006)

Hello again,



> Anyways, I don't plan on getting married until I am 30, so its pointless to date now.


Erm... I don't think love and marriage works this way... It's possible that I used to, but a couple of of Stevie Wonder songs, 'As' and 'All I Do', confirm my current thinking on the matter... Check out the following snippets, from Mr. Wonder's 'As':



> Just as time knew to move on since the beginning
> And the seasons know exactly when to change
> Just as kindness knows no shame
> Know through all your joy and pain
> ...


Note:

1) There's nothing in there about age. This is timeless, and not conscious, just as the seasons know when to change. 
2) He's absolutely belting this out, like he really means it!

If you feel the need to belt out something along these lines about someone else, on an ongoing basis, I suggest you seal the deal. And if not, think twice, irrespective as to whether you're 24 or 42.

Also, you should become friends with more guys, they will point out the winners and losers.


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## hatman (Oct 26, 2006)

Another thing to consider about the timing, and whether you want to date before you are ready for a lifetime commitment:

Dating hepls you to gain experience.  Period.  Interacting with other people helps you to form an image of what you are looking for... after getting the messy end of the stick, you know to avoid someone with a specific trait... and when some aspect of someone's personality works well with you, you know to look for that in others.  It's the same with friendship.

My wife and I have known each other since the 4th grade... 22 years come this January.  We never dated until 4 years ago... and everything that has happened since then has confirmed 2 things: 1)We are a perfect match... we fulfill all the things in each other that we need AND want... 2) if we had started dating 10 years ago, before we both went through the pain and expense of several destructive relationships, we would have killed each other.  That's right: 10 years ago, we were different people, unable to appreciate what the other had to offer.  I would live through the pain and suffering (and the emergency room visits, and everything else) all over again, if I knew that Kelley would be waiting for me on the other side.  Those experiences made me who I am today, and without them, I would not be able to look my wife in th eyes every day and say THANK YOU.  I would not be able to appreciate how well she fits me... she might not fit me as well as she does if I had not gone through that other stuff.

Something to think about.


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## Jon von der Heyden (Oct 26, 2006)

> > Make friends with old farts like me
> > ~Greg Truby
> 
> 
> ...


Hence why I enjoy our occassion drink so much!  To learn from such a knowledgable* old *man such as yourself!  Ha ha!  

Keeping in line with Blondies thread.  Do what I do, forget the boys and chase the girls instead!

*Edit: woz meant to be old!!!*


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 26, 2006)

> Hence why I enjoy our occassion drink so much! To learn from such a knowledgable man such as yourself! Ha ha!



Then it's a shame your sense of humour hasn't undergone improvement at the same time, you young whipper-snapper!


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## blondiechick (Oct 26, 2006)

Greg:
How do I know if i am lifting with good form? lol. I will never be that girl who will lift impressive weights! I HATE squats.... I will never do them ever again. I try and focus on the pounds I lift rather than the reps. Usually; I do the max amount of reps someone told me is best for that exercise. 

I am trying to get away from the junk foods. Mostly soda, soda is so baad. I may have one every now and then. I usually have a half of a candy bar every day. Someone told me you need fat calories- so that is where I get that from. Plus, chocolate is good for you- so they say! I never saw going to the gym means that someone has self-discipline. I would never think I had self-discipline. I guess I have a lil touch of it. 

I don't think I am going to bother speaking to this guy. He probably is in a relationship. I finally decided that I do not want to date anyone until I graduate from college. It probably is going to be hard, but my brother did it. Usually, I am listening to my music, so I can’t hear anyone or speak to anyone. I asked this one guy who I liked a month ago, if he wanted to work out with me, and he said no. So, that was the end of asking people something useless.

Thanks so much for the luck! I just hope I get a B in it. Usually I get A's in my classes. A B in the class will be awesome. You guys are so nice helping people. When do you have the time?

hatman:
In the back of my mind I am always thinking.. what if I dated my ex at the wrong time? What if I were to get back with him in so many years... would that work? I am so stupid like that. My friend said not to even think like that, because it wouldn’t have worked out since it didn’t when we were dating. 

Everyone says that everything will fall into place. But, I am not that type of person, I guess I am not a believer. I am one of those people who needs to see it in order to be like yeah, that is right!  Dating does help with looking for that one person.... but the ending sucks and is horrible. I don’t know why I care so much in finding that one guy. My mind is stupid! I can never think in the moment, it’s always about the future I am looking at.


Thanks for the replies


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## blondiechick (Oct 26, 2006)

> > > Make friends with old farts like me
> > > ~Greg Truby
> >
> >
> ...



I wish the boys did chase the girls! But, my friend always says, the girl chooses the boy. Usually, that is a bad idea, because girls like bad guys who are useless in every way.


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## Todd Bardoni (Oct 26, 2006)

You speak so harshly of everything...I just can't get past it.  phrases like "my mind is stupid" and "I am stupid like that" your use iof the word "useless"...all shows much anger toward yourself and life in general.

Don't mean to keep pointing it out, but it's stands out so much.  Maybe you need to be aware of how you communicate and soften your language up a bit so as to not scare people off...


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## Greg Truby (Oct 26, 2006)

Bianca,

To paraphrase an article I read recently: "There are as many styles of lifting as there are styles of cooking chicken."  Just like both relationships and Excel, there are entire books devoted to the subject.  I don't know how many of my brethren here are also gym rats and can answer, so I'll go ahead and offer a quick primer.
 Generally speaking, you pick between going for building mass & strength; or going for building endurance & tone.  Most women are going to opt for the latter.  Most men, the former or a mix of the two.  I'll assume you're in the latter camp.  So you want to select weights where you can complete 10, 12 or 15 reps per set. 18- or 20-rep sets are really about the upper end of the scale (with the exception of abs) for working sets on any given muscle group.  If you can easily do 20 reps it's time to increase the weight.  If you can barely eek out 8 or 10 reps, drop down a couple of pounds.
Work different body parts on different days if your schedule allows. This is called your "training split". You might do Chest & Biceps on Mondays, Back & Triceps on Tuesdays, Legs & Abs on Fridays, Shoulders & Calves on Saturdays.  Try to pick three to five different exercises for each body part.  And do three, maybe four sets of each exercise.
Do ask an experienced lifter (s/he may be young or old) about proper form if you're unsure.  There are lots of little tips and tricks you pick up over the years.  Generally speaking there are only a handful of exercises that should be done as "compound movements"; meaning that you are deliberately trying to work many muscle groups.  The main compound lifts are squats, deadlifts, bench press and the "olympic lifts" like clean and jerk and the snatch.  Otherwise, "proper form" probably means that you are isolating the muscle group you are focusing on.  For example, if you are doing bicep curls with an "ez-curl" bar (the cambered bar designed for curling) then you should not find yourself rocking your shoulders to "cheat".  [Cheating can be an effective training strategy - if you're doing it on purpose as a part of a "going heavy" rotation to build strength - but again, that's outside the domain of where your objectives would take you.]  Likewise if you are doing dumbbell rows to build your lats, your shoulder should remain more or less in place.  You shouldn't look like you're "starting a lawn mower".  So, you can probably figure out proper form on your own for a lot of the isolation movements.
Proper form on compound movements is a lot trickier.  I would strongly recommend that you work with an experienced lifter and have him or her observe you the first few times you try them.  But I would recommend using them.  You say you "hate squats".  Why?  I'll take a guess... because they're hard.  **** right.  That's what makes 'em great.  In addition to building your quadriceps, they work your hamstrings, your glutes, your lower back and your abs. They give you a strong back and a strong core - in addition to strong legs. Get a pad for the bar if it hurts your neck.  But squat if you can (some people have knee or disk problems that preclude it).
Read up on working out.  Nowadays there are magazines like _Oxygen_ et al, and websites galore that cater to women's fitness.  This is one of those things where I could go on even longer that I have and still only scratch the surface.  The good news is you can learn as you go.  Some people enjoy weightlifting in and of itself - I am among that group.  But I have a lot of friends at the gym for whom weightlifting is only an adjunct to their true passion.  One gal just got back from a two-week bike ride through Oregon.  Another gal just completed in her first triathalon.  I introduced her to a guy I met in the weight room that had been doing triathalons for years and he gave her some good pointers. There's one old Korean guy that is an avid tennis player. If you find that you like working out for its own sake, wonderful.  But if it's not your cup of tea, that's okay too.  The only thing that's *not* okay is sitting on yer keester munching on junk food and feeling sorry for yourself.
My fellow MrExcel-lers continue to do a great job of keeping balls in play on other aspects of this conversation, so I'll sit down and shut up now...but there's at least a response on your question about working out...

<sup>edit</sup> Oh, I forgot one other point I was going to make...

That bit about "I usually have a half of a candy bar every day. Someone told me you need fat calories- so that is where I get that from."  That's just wishful thinking.  Don't kid yourself. Most recommendations are to set your diet's fat content at somewhere between 20% to 35% of the calories coming from fat.  It is really hard *not* to get at least 20% of your calories from fat.  Indeed, it's quite easy to get more then 35 or 40% of your calories from fat.  And - not all fats are created equal.  Some fats are actually good for you, Omega-3 (fish oil) for example.  Also Primrose Oil & CLA are good fats (CLA occurs in *grass-fed* beef. But since most US beef is grain-fed CLA levels in US beef are a fraction of what they were back in the sixties and seventies).  But the kinds of fats that are in the average candy bar are unlikely to be healthy fats.  If your metabolism is fast enough to allow you to enjoy half a candy bar every now and then, knock yerself out.  But don't pretend that it's in any way "healthy". <sub>/edit</sub>

Regards,


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## blondiechick (Oct 27, 2006)

Todd:
I know. People have told me that before, I talk negative. I am trying to change my ways though. I always have had low self-esteem since elementary school. I was never the popular girl, I was the 'freak' or whatever falls in that category all through high school. Do I really scare people off, is it that bad? 

Greg:
I am going to start working with different parts of the body each day. Thanks! I was only doing three exercises for each body part. But since three is the min, I want to work up trying to do five. I want the max of what I can do. Thanks for clearing up the proper form! I understand it now.  I hate squats because you should have a spotter. I don't have a spotter. I don't know anyone at the gym and I would feel embarass to ask someone. I probably would only be able to use the bar, because they weight about 30 pounds. I did this before, like 2 years ago, and I felt like the bar was going to kill me. Not really kill me, but I was afraid I would get hurt. So I guess its fear that I don't do squats. I love working out. Its the the thing I look forward to each day. Well not on Sunday, because everyone needs to have a day off. Right? Should I exercise on Sunday? 

I really should stop eating candy. I agree it is unhealthy in so many ways. All in high school I would eat junk foods and that is what gave me the fat I have on today. But, here I still eat some candy each day.


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## MarkAndrews (Oct 27, 2006)

Have you ever thought of taking up boxing?

I've done it for years & it's one of the best cardio workouts going!


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## hatman (Oct 27, 2006)

> That bit about "I usually have a half of a candy bar every day. Someone told me you need fat calories- so that is where I get that from."  That's just wishful thinking.  Don't kid yourself. Most recommendations are to set your diet's fat content at somewhere between 20% to 35% of the calories coming from fat.  It is really hard *not* to get at least 20% of your calories from fat.  Indeed, it's quite easy to get more then 35 or 40% of your calories from fat.  And - not all fats are created equal.  Some fats are actually good for you, Omega-3 (fish oil) for example.  Also Primrose Oil & CLA are good fats (CLA occurs in *grass-fed* beef. But since most US beef is grain-fed CLA levels in US beef are a fraction of what they were back in the sixties and seventies).  But the kinds of fats that are in the average candy bar are unlikely to be healthy fats.  If your metabolism is fast enough to allow you to enjoy half a candy bar every now and then, knock yerself out.  But don't pretend that it's in any way "healthy".



A tidbit my wife picked up (and added as her Sig Line in E-Mail:



> 'Low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets [15% protein, 60% carbohydrate, 25% fat] increase the risk of heart disease in post-menopausal women.' J Jeppeson, et al. Am J Clin Nutr 1997; 65: 1027-33.




Also interesting that you should mention Primrose oil... just added that to the Cod Liver oil recently, and we just got our second 1/4 cow (grass fed) last month... healthy fats are not easy to find in this country... whole raw unpasterurized milk is practically illegal in our town, and surrounding towns, so I pick it up in Connecticut (where I work)...

Check out this article about FAT consumption, written by a Registered Dietician with a background in MicroBiology and BioChemistry: http://www.apple-nutrition.com/20060729MCTandRQ.html

The rest of her blog articles are also EXCELLENT.


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## blondiechick (Oct 27, 2006)

I REALLY want to try kick boxing out. But, I don't know where to look for classes. They don't offer them at my college. I did take an aerobic class last year, and that was fun. But, it was only a less than hour class two times a week. I didn't really like that fact. 

'Low-fat, high-carbohydrate diets [15% protein, 60% carbohydrate, 25% fat] increase the risk of heart disease in post-menopausal women.

That is a SCARY thought...... thanks for mentioning it! Now I will think TWICE about how much carbos I take in. I hope its not too late for me to change my ways. i have been eating carbos since forever! its easy access to when you are hungry. nobody ever feels like making a meal-- because it time consuming. 

Thanks for the article


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## MarkAndrews (Oct 27, 2006)

Kick boxing is good, but i prefer just boxing for upper body tone


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## Jon von der Heyden (Oct 27, 2006)

Rugby has it all...!  Kicking!  Boxing!  Wrestling!  Upper body tone, lower body...!!!  It has it al!


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## Greg Truby (Oct 27, 2006)

Bianca,



> ...I was only doing three exercises for each body part. But since three is the min, I want to work up trying to do five. I want the max of what I can do...


Three to five is a general rule-of-thumb.  It's not engraved in stone.  Here's what is engraved in stone: *listen to your own body!*  Take the 3-5 exercises per body part/muscle group as a starting point and tailor it to your own body.  Every person's genetics are different.  For example, myself: I am blessed on hamstrings, calves, traps and triceps.  For me, each of these muscle groups responds very quickly to training.  Therefore I only do two exercises for hamstrings, two exercises for calves and two for trapezius.  I am not so blessed on deltoids and latissimus dorsi.  For me these particular muscle groups don't respond worth a lick. So I do four or five excercises for lats and five or six for delts.  So start w/ three exercises per muscle group (and change them up after six to ten weeks otherwise your body adapts and you stagnate).  Then after a few months take a look in the mirror and see what's responding well and what's not responding well and make the appropriate adjustments.



> I hate squats because you should have a spotter. I don't have a spotter.


You don't need a spotter.  A good experienced lifter can help you on your form.  But you should not need a spotter if you are squatting in a "power cage" or "squat cage".  Simply set the safety rods at an appropriate height.  Here are some basic tips.  <ul>
Keep your head up; eyes looking straight ahead or slightly above level.
Keep your back arched/straight.  Do not let it bend.
Mind your knees and where they "track".  They should not be "bowing in" as you go down.
[*]





> ...I probably would only be able to use the bar, because they weight about 30 pounds. I did this before, like 2 years ago, and I felt like the bar was going to kill me...


A standard 7' olympic bar usually weighs 45 pounds.  And if that's all you can do, that perfectly fine.  If you try that and find that you are having a great deal of difficulty, then you might start squatting using the Smith Machine. (Use google to learn more about this apparatus if you are not familiar with it.) The bar on a Smith Machine is counterweighted; so it's a very good way to start.  You don't want to stick with the Smith Machine forever because you don't get any of the core workout due to its keeping the bar on a strict track.  I still use the Smith Machine for squatting from time to time because you can move your feet farther back or farther forward to hit different mixes of quad/hamstring.[*]





> ...I love working out. Its the the thing I look forward to each day. Well not on Sunday, because everyone needs to have a day off. Right? Should I exercise on Sunday?...


Most folks need at least two days off per week to recover.  Whether that's two consecutive days or split up like taking Thursdays & Sundays off or whatever will all depend on your schedule.  Even the most hard core seldom go seven days a week.  Remember you do not build muscle in the gym!  You actually _damage_ muscle in the gym.  You _build_ muscle during the recovery process _after_ the workout when your body compensates for what you just did to it by making more muscle.  Proper rest and nutrition are crucial.  Otherwise you're just spinning your wheels.[*]





> I really should stop eating candy. I agree it is unhealthy in so many ways. All in high school I would eat junk foods and that is what gave me the fat I have on today. But, here I still eat some candy each day.


All things in moderation.  For me candy is almost worse than cigarettes were.  If I just stay away, I'm good.  But if I have a little, next thing ya know, I'm halfway through a 1-lb bag of peanut M&M's.  So, I just have to stay away.  If you have more self-control than I and _can_ have "just a bit" then by all means, don't make yourself crazy.  If you're like me, try to keep the binges relatively infrequent and know that every handful of goodies means just that much more cardio to pay for it...[/list]Again, I'll leave Todd and others to carry on the other aspects of conversations going on in this thread.  I agree with Todd in that I find your language quite emotional.  But I simply attributed it to the passions that run rampant with youth.  Which of us is making the wiser interpretation of your vocabulary I am unable to discern.<hr />
@ hatman: interesting.  I'm still studying nutrition as I am able.  The article you cite is a wonderful example of what I'm finding quite frustrating, which is that there seems to be all sorts of footnotes and caveats and conflicting findings around.  OK - overall a low-fat diet is good; but maybe make some adjustments if you're a post-menopausal woman?  Or is a low-fat diet bad for all of us? (Which swings counter to what most nutritionists/dieticians say.)  I have a really long way to go before I'm up to "moderately ignorant", but I'm a-trying...

Yeah, I'm taking a "fat stack" of Fish Oil, CLA & Primrose Oil (for the GLA).  I'm still looking for a good MCT supplement.


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## hatman (Oct 27, 2006)

> @ hatman: interesting.  I'm still studying nutrition as I am able.  The article you cite is a wonderful example of what I'm finding quite frustrating, which is that there seems to be all sorts of footnotes and caveats and conflicting findings around.  OK - overall a low-fat diet is good; but maybe make some adjustments if you're a post-menopausal woman?  Or is a low-fat diet bad for all of us? (Which swings counter to what most nutritionists/dieticians say.)  I have a really long way to go before I'm up to "moderately ignorant", but I'm a-trying...
> 
> Yeah, I'm taking a "fat stack" of Fish Oil, CLA & Primrose Oil (for the GLA).  I'm still looking for a good MCT supplement.


Greg:
My wife is the more knowledgeable of the two of us about this stuff... though I am slowly picking it up a bit at a time.  You see, Carolyn is a friend of MINE from college, and she and my wife hijacked each other (as they describe it)... added to the fact that my wife is a PA, she is more inclined toward this stuff than yours truly, the dumb Engineer with only one degree.

But I'll try, since you asked so nicely... 

The Short Version.

The medical community, for a variety of reasons that I won't get into here, labelled all fats as bad in the early 1970s.  In reality, they were painting with a very broad brush, as you so aptly pointed out with your observation that not all fats are created equal.  The simple truth is that there isn;t a single hydrogenated fat in existance that is good for human consumption, though some are worse than others.  In every arterial blockage that has ever been biopsied, there has been no saturated fat found, only various unsaturated fats.  Read as artificial, or heavily processed fats.  That's right, most of the health risks that the medical community claims are a result of a high fat diet, are truly a result of man-made fats.  

Did you happen to notice over the last 20 years the back-pedalling that the medical community has done regarding fats?  At first, we were told to eliminate fats from the diet.  No eggs, no dairy, no this, no that.  Then they said that eggs might not be so bad.  Oh, and nuts are okay.  Oh, and poly versus mono unsaturated fats versus saturated fats... some are better than others.  Well, they are still trying to figure out the best way to find a compromise between good sceince, big agribusiness lobbies, their own ethics, and how they can change their mind without looking like morons.

The worst part about it is that there were studies done in the 1940's through the 1960's that clearly showed the relationship between artificial fats and declining health.  And many of those studies were held up as examples to show exactly the opposite of what the data actually proved.  That's not a typo: the abstracts of several major studies that are the basis of the current philosophy regarding a low-fat diet are actually based on data that shows the opposite.  I wish I could remember the particular study.  It's discussed in detail in Dr. Uffe Ravnskov's book called The Cholesterol Myths.  I highly recommend it.  Also an excellent read is Dr. Mary Enig's Know Your Fats, which my wife is reading right now.

There are partial synopsized excerpts of both of these books, plus a whole host of other good fat info here at the Weston A Price Foundation.  I would start with The Oiling of America, and work your way through from there.  Actually, the WAPF is chock full of excellent dietary information is general... so have fun.

The last thing I am going to say about fats, almost a direct quote from Dr. Enig's book, is that it is as important to mainatin a proper balance of Omega-3 to Omega-6 Fatty Acids as it is to eat good fats... a bad ratio of fatty acids can be almost as bad as eating the wrong fats in the first place.


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## blondiechick (Oct 27, 2006)

they don't have rugby here. i don't think i would like it, since it would involve wrestling. i am afraid when it comes to that. afaird that i will break a bone or something. i have always been like that. sadly, i am one of those girls who dont have thick bones.. so i probably wouldnt do that good in it! 

thanks for the advice.  i should just start with 3 and build up on that. i just always try to do the extreme when i am first starting out with things. oh gosh! it weights 45 pounds! yeah, that is kinda heavy for me.. i should wait until i can be able to lift that. i think the gym has a smith machine, so i should try and use that tomorrow. 

wait, i could damage muscle in the gym? that is a scary thought... maybe i should take saturday off too. i didnt think that you build muscle during the recovery process after the workout. i dont even know any of this stuff.... thanks for giving me the facts.


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## Crow_23 (Oct 28, 2006)

Bodybuilding.com
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hitworkout.htm

Dont know if that site was mentioned already or not.  Everything you could ever need to know can be found there.  I've been doing

http://www.teenbodybuilding.com/brent2.htm

as well as some agility stuff and my endurance is through the roof


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## blondiechick (Oct 29, 2006)

thanks for the link!

"The workout should last no longer than 45 minutes! Plan your rest between sets accordingly so that you finish in this time period. Studies have shown that after 47 ? minutes of intense weight training, your cortisol levels shoot up. This means that the longer you workout AFTER 47 minutes, the LESS results you will get and the more likely you will overtrain. So get in the gym, lift hard, stay focused, and get out."

i find this interesting... i usually do more than that.


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## Crow_23 (Oct 29, 2006)

HAHA wow I actually read the initial few posts and am confused as to how it got to lifting...guess I'll have to read the middle posts.  But to put my two cents in about the initial comments about guys and stuff - how do you feel when a guy approaches you?  Then reverse that - how would a guy feel if you approached him?  Exactly.  As a guy the coolest thing is being in a bar and having a girl approach me.  Right off the bat it tells me a lot about her confidence and all that other stuff.  Easiest way to make your approach is to find something in the bar or wherever you are that is silly/goofy and approach said guy and point it out and make a joke about it.  Could be what someone is wearing or the goofy guy that is dancing and makin a fool of himself.  Then just go off of that.  If he is diggin it then continue if not then move on to next guy and repeat.  In terms of "dating" I have had a handful of girlfriends and I can honestly say I have never been on a "date".  Hanging out or "chillin" with a girl and eating dinner or whatever with her then yes.  The minute a person considers it a date - dont know what it is in the thought process - but they act differently and try to gain acceptance by doing and saying the right things.  This is NOT good at all.  Another thing - when I go to any place I introduce myself to the bartenders and staff.  Also, good thing you could do that I do....I walk up to a group of girls and tell them that if they forget my name later on that night that they each have to buy me a drink, and if I forget their names I have to buy them a drink.  Of course you have to have a decent memory but nothin is better than to have a group of the opposite sex comin up to you shouting your name       And that would be my 15 cents


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## Asala42 (Oct 30, 2006)

On the working out stuff, I've been at it for about a year and a half now and have done fairly well.  I've done a lot of research already and although I still have a lot to learn, I've uncovered a lot.  So if you'd like, here's the lessons I've learned in case they help.

For reference:  My before stats started at 5'9", 215 lbs, ~30% bodyfat (not too _too_ bad, but flabby definately).  I'm now about 175 lb and ~17.5% bodyfat.  (My ultimate goal is ~10-12%)

*Nutrition*
1)  *By far the most important thing I learned:  Do not starve yourself!*

Believe it or not, cutting calories too much is actually counter-productive to losing fat in the long term.  That may seems counter-intuitive, but it's true because the body adapts to this kind of thing.  If you cut calories too far, your body will quickly respond by entering a starvation mode - slowing metabolism and sacrificing muscle tissue.  This is why most diets tend to fail long term, people aren't generally willing to excercise as well as change their diet.  People who do crash diets without excercise tend to lose some weight in the short term, plateau quickly, then regain the weight - only now they'll generally be worse than how they started (same weight, lower metabolism, less lean muscle mass). 

For most men, this means you usually want to keep you're daily calorie intake in the ballpark of 2200-2700 for losing weight (2700-2900 for maintaining).  For most women, 1400-1800 is a decent range for losing weight, 2000-2100 for maintaining.  Going less than these or at the bottom edge risks metabolism adaption and muscle loss.


2)  *5-6 small meals per day*

This is actually easier than it sounds, but usually takes some planning before you get into a routine.  Most gyms know about this strategy for cranking up your metabolic rate.

The logic here is that your body always cranks up it's metabolic rate while digesting and processing calories, then crashes between meals.   On average, after about 3 hours after a meal your calorie burning rate drops. So the idea here is to eat 5-6 smaller meals roughly 3 hours between them.  This worked fantastically well for me!  

3)  * Target 1-2 lbs of gradual fat loss per week (at most) *

This falls in line with (1) above.  If you're losing more weight than this, chances are you're starting to burn off lean muscle mass.  That's bad.  More muscle mass = higher metabolic rate.  Losing too much too quickly will only make it harder later.

4)  *  Have enough protein- and know the breakdown of what you're eating*  (Most people find they don't get much protein and need to bump it up)

I have a typical daily target of 40% Protein, 40% Carbs, 20% fat.  Even if you don't log what you eat regularly, it's usually very worthwhile to take a "snapshot" check of what you've been eating lately.  I don't hit this target as well as I'd always like, but I'll almost always find a way to make improvements when I check. 

For reference, the usual assumptions for grams to calories are:  
1g of Protein = ~4 calories
1g of Carbs = ~4 calories
1g of Fat = ~9 calories.

So when reading grams of fat on a label, note that those carry more weight

5) * Know your (approximate) TDEE: Total Daily Energy Expendature*

This is a handy one, it gives you an idea on how many calories you burn per day to maintain you're weight (and can be used to stategize for losing weight).  Here's the Harris-Benedict formula:

BMR (before activity adjustment)
Men:  BMR = 66 + (13.7 x weight in kg) + (5 x height in cm) - (6.8 x age in years)
Women:  BMR = 655 + (9.6 x weight in kg) + (1.8 x height in cm) - (4.7 x age in years)

Sidenote:  
1 inch = 2.54 cm
1 kg = 2.2 lbs

After you get a BMR, you multiply this by an "Activity Factor", which is kind of a fudge factor that depends on how much excerice you do. 

Little or no excercise:  BMR x 1.2
Lightly active (1-3 days per week of excercise):  BMR x 1.4
Moderately active (3-5 days per week of excercise): BMR x 1.55
Very active (hard excercise 6-7 days per week):  BMR x 1.7

So for me:  I'm 34,  5'9", 175 lbs, and I'm probably on the high end of "Moderate" excersice (I run 5 times per week, 3 weight lifting workouts).  I'll call that an Activity factor of 1.6.

My BMR = about 1800
My TDEE = about 2900 (2880, but hell I'll round up)

That TDEE represents the ballpark number of daily calories I should take in to maintain my weight with that excercise amount.

_Ok now how to use that info_

To lose fat, a common guideline is to run 500-1000 calories less than you're TDEE value per day.  Another more precise way is to run 15-20% belowe your TDEE (instead of a flat value).  In any case, as stated above you don't want to go too low or your body will enter a starvation mode.  

Sidenote:  3500 calories per lb of fat.  So if you can reach a 500 calorie deficit for a week:  7*500 = 3500 = 1 lb of fat.   Of course that's not easy to maintain because your body is adaptive.


6) *Zig-Zag calorie rotation strategy*

This is a big one.  It's used to exploit your body's adaptation abilities, and will prevent your body from adapting to a lower calorie intake.

Theory:  The body begins to effectively adapt (increase or slow) its matabolism to your calorie intake after 3 days.  This means if you stay in a deficit for long, the body adjusts to compensate (and you'll hit a plateau).

Step 1:  Work your way to 100-200 calories ABOVE your TDEE.  (I only needed a week to do this, but if you're eating substantially less than you should be, you mght want to take a little more time to build up to it).  

This in a sense trains your metabolic rate up to your TDEE +100-200 calories per day.

Step 2:  Enter a 500+ calorie deficit for 3 consecutive days.  On day 4, have a "high calorie" day (roughly equal to your TDEE +/- 100 calories).  

Repeat the cycle:  3 days of calorie deficit, 1 day of high calorie maintenance.  This trips up your body's adaptation reflex and keeps your metabolic rate at around your TDEE level even though you're usually eating less.

I found that after every few months my body would adapt anyway - but I could resume progress again after taking a week of "retraining" with all 7 days of high calorie days.

7) * Drink a lot of water*
This is probably one of those "ok that's just common sense" type of things.  



Well that's all I have for now,  I hope some of that might be useful to some of you.  I might talk about cardio and weightraining some other time.


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## Greg Truby (Oct 30, 2006)

Asala,

Good post.  What you've written there about weight loss is pretty much in line with my own experience and what I've read as well.  And I'll repeat what you said in a different manner. If I were to come up and enthusiatically tell you "Hurry down to the supermarket! They're selling it for only $1.99 a pound!"  What would be your first question?  Your first question is "they're selling *what* for $1.99 a pound?"  Yet so many people go on a "diet" and get all excited because they've "lost five pounds"!  Woohoo! Well... ok, you lost five pounds; but it was five pounds of *what?*  Did you lose 5 lbs of fat?  3 of fat, but 2 of muscle or 5 lbs or muscle?  Most people fail to focus on this part of the question.  So, I agree 100%, it's a very good point to make.

Also, considering that this is an Excel forum, I'm going to guess that I am not the only "numbers guy" who did the math on this and wondered about your "3,500 calories per pound of fat". If a gram of fat has about 9 calories, then a kilo has 9,000 calories, hence 1 lb should have about 4,082 calories.   Turns out you're  right, btw...it's generally considered to be 3,500 KCal/lb of fat. 

<hr />
To Crow_23,

Yes, bodybuilding.com has a very comprehensive site.  But, at least IMHO, it's almost too comprehensive for a beginner.  Given the types of questions that Bianca has asked and her responses to the training information we have provided her in our posts, my suspicion is that she might find bodybuilding.com to be a bit overwhelming.  For Bianca, I'd be more inclined to recommend something more like stumpuous.com's pages on women's training.


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## Asala42 (Oct 30, 2006)

> If a gram of fat has about 9 calories, then a kilo has 9,000 calories, hence 1 lb should have about 4,082 calories.



Good link there - I always figured that the "1g of Fat = 9 calories" thing was just a rounded value. 

_edited for sanity points. No don't get up - I got it! _


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## Crow_23 (Oct 30, 2006)

^^ agree Greg.  I guess it depends on motivation and personality.  Whenever I do something I want all the information laid out in front of me so that there are no surprises half way down the road and I have to turn around.  I mainly go to the bodybuilding.com site anymore for the funny gym stories and the motivational stories.  Makes ya feel better about yourself that other people are more incompetent that you are at certain things.


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## blondiechick (Nov 2, 2006)

asala:

omg! i did not know that, about cutting calories. i have been limiting my food intake, and i guess i shouldn't really do that calorie-wise that is. when i was in high school, i didnt exercise and i would go on and off a diet. and i hated that. but now that i decided to work out, hopefully i will improve. ****, 2000 calories? i am begining to think, that i dont want to lose weight. i am not overweight or anything, i am where i am supposed to me. i am concertarting more on gaining muscle. but, in order to gain muscle, do you have to lose weight first? this has always been a question of mine.

yeah. i been trying to have 6 meals a day. somedays, i don't even reach 4, because i dont feel like eating. in my mind, i want to starve myself, so somedays are just like dreadful. 

each week, it seems that i am losing 1 pound. so i guess that is good that i am not losing anything more! but like i said, i wish i could gain weight, so it will be muscle. how long will that take for that to take effect? 

i need to get more protein every day. usually, i dont meet the 40% range! i should try and focus on that. i never heard of the TDEE thank you for bringing it to my attention. at first, when i saw the math, i was like no! but now that i glanced over it, is not hard to do. i hate math! i am always drinking water. so i guess that is a thing that won't ever go wrong. : )

thank you for your post! i really learned a lot. 

i have one question, its kinda stupid. when i work out, will my upper chest size decrease? someone told me this, and i kinda freaked out. i don't want to end up having a flat chest.

Greg:
thanks for the site. its better than the other site. i am going to look at it more. : ) thanks so much.


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## Asala42 (Nov 2, 2006)

Hey Bianca  - I'll take a stab at some of your questions.  
(First I have a few)

Question 1:  At the gym you go to, do you have access to a personal trainer or someone who can measure your bodyfat percentage? Taking a weekly measurement of your weight and bodyfat percentage are very useful in indicating how your body is changing, where you are now,  and will give direction on what changes in your workout or nutrition should be made.  

Question 2:  Have you taken a quick snapshot log of what you eat on an average day?  Both in calories and percentages of Protein, Carbs, and Fat?  

Question 3:  I posted a quick formula for TDEE above (one is for women, another for men).  What do you think you're burning in an average day based on that?  Anyway back on track


> But, in order to gain muscle, do you have to lose weight first? this has always been a question of mine.


Actually to gain lean muscle well you really need to be an a calorie surplus.  If you're losing about 1 lb of weight each week then you're definately in a calorie deficit.  That's not good or bad, mind you - that's just a snapshot of where you are.

Since a calorie deficit is needed to effectively lose fat (and a calorie surplus is needed to effectively gain muscle) many people take a "flip-flop" approach between the two strategies over time.   Like you, I'm in a "calorie deficit" mode.  In January I'll switch to a "calorie surplus" mode to gain muscle mass.   The problem:  it's freakin' hard to gain muscle.  Really hard.  It means a bigger focus on the gym and a somewhat less focus on cardio.  In a surplus mode, usually you'll gain some muscle and some fat.  Then, when you're ready to go into a deficit mode again, you burn off the fat.  After a few months of that, I'll move to a calorie deficit again to burn off whatever fat I gained (and hopefully that will prep me to burn even more)

Whether you want to start in a calorie deficit mode or surplus is really a matter of preference - there are advantages to both.  Since you're losing weight now, you could keep it going if you want to trim down faster in the short term.  On the other hand, gaining muscle now would drastically boost up your metabolism - making it easier to burn off even more fat pounds later.  Both approaches used collectively work well to bring your bodyfat% down and give you some great tone.


> yeah. i been trying to have 6 meals a day. somedays, i don't even reach 4, because i dont feel like eating. in my mind, i want to starve myself, so somedays are just like dreadful.


You might want to try to work a 5 meal day kind of thing.  In one article I read that was what was advised for women - simply due to the fact that women generally take in less calories.   Definately don't starve yourself in any case - that's only going to give short term results that you'll regain later.   You should never ever feel hungry!  You should check your daily calorie intake and compare it to your TDEE - from the sounds of things you might not eating enough.


> Each week, it seems that i am losing 1 pound. so i guess that is good that i am not losing anything more! but like i said, i wish i could gain weight, so it will be muscle. how long will that take for that to take effect?


This is where the bodyfat % measurements are useful.  There are several ways to measure bodyfat% - the usual (cheap/easiest) is the caliper (skin-fold) method.  There's also a cheap hand-held device thingie (my technical term) you can use that sends a quick electric pulse through your upper body to estimate it.   Neither are perfect - but they're sufficient in that you can use the numbers to trend where your lean mass and fat mass is going.  

If you're immediate goal is to gain some strength and musle mass - go with a calorie surplus (you may want to slowly work up to it though depending on your current intake now) and take a more aggressive lifting program (like 3 full-body workouts with a day of rest between them).  You'd gain weight, and the bodyfat numbers would tell you how much of it is fat or lean muscle.  When you're bored with it a month or two later, switch to a deficit mode.  

Now if you're going for "tone" and not really strength- you won't really get it until you go back into the deficit mode and reduce your bodyfat percentage.  Again - this falls back to personal preference but using both methods alternating works very well to break plateaus.


> I need to get more protein every day. usually, i dont meet the 40% range!


Another good rule of thumb kind of thing is 1g of protein per lb of lean muscle mass.  That can frequently fall under the 40% mark depending.  


> When i work out, will my upper chest size decrease? someone told me this, and i kinda freaked out. i don't want to end up having a flat chest.


Fat loss will be in proportion with the rest of your body - so actually you have nothing to worry about there.   It's only when you reach the ultra-low end of the bodyfat% scale where the chest would start to flatten out (and you'd see it coming a mile away). 

Anyway hope that's useful!  (sorry if that got a bit long)
Adam


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## blondiechick (Nov 9, 2006)

question 1:
sadly, i don't have access to a personal trainer. they have a scale though, but i have one at home. plus, i dont feel confortable weighing myself in front of others.... because i feel as if i am fat, even though i really am not.. according to others.

question 2:
i keep the numbers in my head basically. right now though, i am not eating that much. i am loaded with so much stuff to do that i don't have the time. but mostly... i don't feel like eating for some reason. its all in my head.

question 3:
i believe somewhere between 200-275. so i really shouldn't do as much cardio as i am doing now? usually i do an hour a day. 30 at the gym and 30 at home. then i lift for about 45 min. am i doing something wrong, here? should i be lifting for like more than a hour?

i am going to start trying to go on that 5 meals a day approach... its just some days i get lazy and dont feel like eating. and when i do eat, i feel fat and digusting. i hate that, but its just the way i feel. 

3-full body workouts.. so what does that mean? like shoulders, arms and legs all in  day? and if that is the case- how long should i be at the gym for that?

thanks so much


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## Asala42 (Nov 10, 2006)

Hey Bianca!

Glad to hear you're still working at it 



> question 3: i believe somewhere between 200-275.


That 200-275 number doesn't sound right for a TDEE- It should be in the ballpark of 2000 (ish).  (Maybe you forgot to convert your height to cm or something?).  You may want to recheck that TDEE formula.  If you're in a lazy mood (or just hate the math) feel free to post or PM me your height, weight, and age and I'll run it through the formula for you.  In any case, this number is extremely useful to know so it's definately worth the couple minutes to check it.



> so i really shouldn't do as much cardio as i am doing now? usually i do an hour a day. 30 at the gym and 30 at home. then i lift for about 45 min. am i doing something wrong, here? should i be lifting for like more than a hour?


Can you clarify this a little?  You're doing two 30 minute cardio workouts per day, 7 days a week?  45 min gym workouts; 3 days per week?  What kind/how many excercises are you doing?  (I'm trying to nail down what your Activity Factor is for TDEE calculations as well as get a good idea on what workout routine you're doing).  

45 minute sessions at weightlifing is about right.  Generally you want to keep it under an hour; get in, do your stuff, get out (though it would take more time if you rest a lot, socialize, or need to wait for equipment).   If your cranking at full speed and go over an hour, you're probably overdoing it.  For reference, beginners often take a 3 day full body workout approach.  8-9 excercises (1 per body part), 3 sets each, 8-15 reps per set (depending on weight) with roughly 1-1.5 minutes of rest between each set.   

For example:  3 sets of excercises for your Back, Chest, Shoulders, Legs (quads, hamstrings, calves), Abs, Bisceps, Triceps.   You generally want to do the bigger muscle excercises first, and as you'll go you want to mix up the exact exercises/body parts on different days.  

IF that seems like a lot, it can be.  It usually takes me about 45-50 minutes, though I'm tired as hell when I finish that kind of routine.  I actually worked up to it by dividing those excercises in half and did a Monday/Tuesday, Thursday/Friday routine (2 full body workouts effectively over 4 kind of half days).   When I took that approach I was usually done weightlifting within the 25-30 minute range.

More aggressive (intermediate+) workouts start to break up muscle groups and do 2+ types of excercises per body part (and often increase sets for the bigger muscles).  For those you almost have to split up your workouts across several days. 



> i am going to start trying to go on that 5 meals a day approach... its just some days i get lazy and dont feel like eating. and when i do eat, i feel fat and digusting. i hate that, but its just the way i feel.


 I think your doing the right thing.  It's important you don't skip meals though - keep the meals small if you need to but skipping just slows your metabolism down.  One thing that I really like is that once you have your TDEE number in your mind, you pretty much have the tools to formulate an eating plan.  One of the nice perks of having a plan in place is you're always guilt free - you eat what you planned on eating to maximize fat loss and prevent calorie adaptation.

Anyway - more on it later.  (I'm at work slackin' again hehe)
Adam


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