# Don't KISS me!



## the magician (Dec 29, 2006)

You know the old saying - KISS - Keep It Simple Stoopid.  (or some such word that begins with S)  That may be helpful in some cases, but not so often here.  What do I mean?  I may speak for many, or maybe just myself, but I've seen many a post with this sort of thing:

_I'm trying to sum cells across multiple sheets with a formula.  Let's say I want to add A1 on Sheet1 with B2 on Sheet2 and C3 on Sheet3. How would I do that? Heelllp!_

After some MVP replies with a helpful suggestion like =sum("Sheet1!A1","Sheet2!B2","Sheet3!C3")  the OP (original poster) writes back:

_Perhaps I should have been clearer. I have 39 workbooks with 80 worksheets each storing payroll information for 3120 employees, and the information is randomly entered in various cells from a webpage download that runs at midnight, and the sheet names are according to the employee name stored in A1 for full-time salaried males, B39 for full-time hourly males, BX6143 for part-time salaried females, IW65537 for......_

Well, you get the picture.  And let's not even talk about when an employee leaves.

I say, instead of KISS,  how about GUTS: Give Us The Skinny.  Tell us what you're really doing and help us to help you.  Use code tags, and Colo's HTML maker to show us what you're doing.

I'll leave you with this "simple" thought:
With all the MVP's and Excel wizards on this forum, the LAST thing you want to do is dumb it down!


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## Greg Truby (Dec 31, 2006)

Dave,

It's hard to make a universal recommendation on how complete or complex you want to make a post.  If you really only need to sum a few numbers from different worksheets?  Why give all the rest of that info? It only muddies the waters.  On the other hand; sometimes it is critical to providing a good solution.  If this person's situation was a complex as you describe, then the only way this person would be asking such a simple question would be that the designer of the project is not the OP.  The OP has most likely inherited this from someone that was much more Excel skilled.  

But if you do KISS and post a question that can be scanned quickly; your chances of getting an answer quite a bit better.  So there are benefits to each.  Just depends on the particular situation.

Anyhoo, what, exactly are you testing?


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## the magician (Jan 3, 2007)

Here's a KISS:
http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?t=250216


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## Err (Jan 9, 2007)

I think there is also a question of Privacy and Data Privacy. It's nice to generalize when you think you can sort things out -but per my job's rules I can not post personal information or even what I do because of the sensitive nature of the data that I deal with. 

(Yes, I am a spy).

However I think it is almost always possible to give people suitable examples NOT USING the data that I'm dealing with. 

Well anyways, that's my Two Cents.


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## the magician (Jan 9, 2007)

Err (assuming that's your code name) - complete agreement.  And thanks for the post.

I just hate when someone says "in A1 I have A and B1 I have B, how to put them together in C1?"  And then later they tell you that actually the cells contain complex formulas referencing protected workbooks on a remote server and blah blah blah.

You'll find this :


> the real question is more complex than what I stated (in the past)


here:
http://www.mrexcel.com/board2/viewtopic.php?t=250710
on post #10 of a 3+ page thread that wasted a lot of good people's time and needed a CIA-trained cryptographer to decipher. And that's another issue.

Sure, edit the data and change the names to protect the innocent, I agree. Do it myself.  But if you change "John Doe" into "abc" and then later tell us it's "John Doe" when the formula/code we give to work with "abc" doesn't work because that in fact isn't what's in the cell, well...

Like I said at the end of the original post, and I'll modify it a little here:
Clean it up - sure.  Dumb it down - Nah.

Now, kill me if you must.  A job's a job after all.


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## Andrew Fergus (Jan 9, 2007)

*Don't get caught!*

That's what some call a 'bait and switch'.  Unfortunately you see these occasionally.  The trick is to identify such posts before you get hooked into something that is over your head - it has happened to me too on what geniunely appear to be simple questions.  Pick your threads and pick your OP's carefully - it may seem selfish but no-one likes to leave a thread hanging and no-one I know enjoys being baited.

Just my thoughts.....
Andrew



> I just hate when someone says "in A1 I have A and B1 I have B, how to put them together in C1?"  And then later they tell you that actually the cells contain complex formulas referencing protected workbooks on a remote server and blah blah blah.
> 
> You'll find this :
> 
> ...


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## Greg Truby (Jan 10, 2007)

Ya know, I think this is a first for me (I'm so proud).  I've actually diverted a thread to the point of getting it moved from one forum to another.


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## Michael M (Jan 10, 2007)

I tend to agree with "the magician", and I also get a bit testy when a dozen users input into a thread over about 10 pages.....and then the user can't even repond with a quick "thanks".
I made this comment in another forum in the past, and was told in no uncertain terms....."If you need thanks every time you help someone, your doing it for the wrong reasons"
I always make the point of thanking the repondent when I ask a question.
Catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Keep up the good work guys.
Michael M


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## steve case (Jan 11, 2007)

Interesting,   

I'm one of the A1 B1 C1 question askers, and I've nearly always gotten the exact answer that I want.  

Usually I've got the  <s>toy</s> spreadsheet all laid out and I need some help in syntax to perform some explicit function and I don't want the helpers to get all balled up with the details of alphanumeric part numbers, and yes the Bill of Material is downloaded fresh at midnight every day. 

I'm a rank amateur at this stuff, but on a few occasions I've been able to return the favor and answer some of the questions posed here.   It's the general A1 B1 C1 question that I will tackle.   


Whatever the point of view, I'm very grateful that this site exists, as I would not be regarded in my small corner of the world as an Excel guru when I most certainly am not. 
.
.
.
.


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## Greg Truby (Jan 12, 2007)

Yes, Stanley.  And the fact that you generally ask clear questions is why, if, when I am scanning the first couple of pages of the questions forum and I see that _StACase_ has asked a question, I will pop in and see if you've gotten an answer.  There are certain other long-time members that I know generally ask clear questions and know how to search, so they aren't posting something too common.  I'll always read their threads when I see them.  

And, of course, the reverse holds true.  There are some posters that have posted muddled or overly complex or easily researched questions too often and they are on my personal "ain't-gonna-even-look-'cause-it's-waste-of-my-time" list. 

And there are certain members whose work I will generally stop by and take a look at.  For example, if the title of a thread looks interesting and I see that _Right-Click, Ivan,_ or _Jaafar_ or someone of their caliber have answered, I'll pop in to see if there's something new to be learned.


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## Von Pookie (Jan 12, 2007)

Greg:


> Ya know, I think this is a first for me (I'm so proud).  I've actually diverted a thread to the point of getting it moved from one forum to another.



Eeeeh, not really. This is where it should have been in the first place. I just never bothered to move it myself, and I don't know who did


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## Greg Truby (Jan 12, 2007)

Oh,  you think not, eh?  Well, allow me to present Exhibit A, Your Honor: 

Dave [the magician] posted two (2) very similar threads in the Test Lounge on 29 Dec 2006.  One regarding to KISS or not to KISS.  And another on using Code Tags.  One has thus far remained in the Test Lounge, the other got moved.  The difference?  I posted on one and I did not post on the other.  

The defense rests.


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## the magician (Jan 12, 2007)

Boys, if you're going to fight, take it outside.


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## Greg Truby (Jan 12, 2007)

> Boys, if you're going to fight, take it outside.



What   Actually *fight* with Pook?!  *never!* (a) She's too nice (b) she's too cute (c) I'm scared of her  (she has them mystical 'moderator' powers that can make your threads go bye-bye).


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## Von Pookie (Jan 12, 2007)

...besides, I'm not a *boy*


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## the magician (Jan 12, 2007)

And she has a sparklingly cool sig, which surprisingly I never actually noticed before, and makes me "mea culpa" at my previous post and it's gender-specificity.

```
Sub SupplicateSelf(ByVal OMG as vbApology)
   BegForgiveness = True
   ShamedFace.VeryHidden = True
   Exit Room
End Sub
```


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## Von Pookie (Jan 12, 2007)

Well, you boys can go ahead and go outside if you want. I'm going to stay in here where it's warm.


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## XLGibbs (Jan 12, 2007)

I agree with the Magician here and I was one of the participants, along with Norie, who was just trying to get him to tell us what he really needed instead of being so cryptic.

Sometimes deciphering what the OP really wants is part of the science.  I have seen a lot of the MVP's read between the lines on a simple post quite accurately, and other times it is like pulling teeth to get it worked out.

I contribute a lot at here and VBAX, and it is often the most challenging thing...the extrapolation of what they really need.

As was said, some posters are auto-ignore and others are always an interesting read.

On the topic of KISS though...sometimes there is a tendency to overdo the simplicity of a response as well.  Most of the people who post here have relatively simple (from our perspective) problem, but have a tremendous lack of understanding of how excel really works (and that remains true for many of the veterans as well, myself included).

I see to many over-simplified, or under-explained responses as what needs to happen and why.


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## the magician (Jan 12, 2007)

XL - good point. There are some responses by board members that are KISSes in themselves.  When a poster asks a question, and the answer is "Use validation" or "try sumproduct", I just know that thread is far from over. 

One of the things I enjoy about this forum is the sharing of the knowledge that the MVP's and others have. I've learned how to do things I didn't even know I didn't know, or that I could use. 

I guess finding the balance to ask just enough of the question to get just enough of an answer is the key.

IN the meantime >> >> >> >>

imagine if you will >> >> >>
and then >> >> >> >>
but I guess not >> >> >>


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## XLGibbs (Jan 12, 2007)

Sometimes Mr.Magician, determining the right question IS the problem and sometimes answering the wrong questions the right way is the problem

I too learn a great deal from what the MVP's post here.


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## Island Vince (Jan 13, 2007)

*My thoughts on KISSing*

Hi everybody:

In addition to seeking solutions for Excel problems I frequently encounter, I enjoy browsing the Message Board for ideas and general knowledge. I search by subject and save interesting items.

I have a pet peeve. I wish more posters would pay more attention to describing their request in the subject line, instead of using generalities like, 'Problem with Totals', 'Help with Formula', 'Need Advice', etc. I know that the rules state that one should be specific, but many are not. Perhaps the experts who reply to such a post could gently remind the poster to pay more attention to the subject of their posts, so one could get a clue as to what it's about.

KISS - Keep It Subject Specific


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## the magician (Jan 13, 2007)

Amen!


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## Joe4 (Jan 13, 2007)

> Oh,  you think not, eh? Well, allow me to present Exhibit A, Your Honor:
> 
> Dave [the magician] posted two (2) very similar threads in the Test Lounge on 29 Dec 2006. One regarding to KISS or not to KISS. And another on using Code Tags. One has thus far remained in the Test Lounge, the other got moved. The difference? I posted on one and I did not post on the other.
> 
> The defense rests.


Let me set the record straight, lest Greg's head gets too big!  

I am the Moderator who moved it (I concur with Kristy's assessment), and it had nothing to do with the content of Greg's post!  As to why I didn't move the other one, I didn't see it!

So, sorry to disappoint you Greg.  Though your ability to divert a thread is legendary, you were not responsible for the thread being moved (I have a feeling this will only encourage you to try harder...)


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## the magician (Jan 14, 2007)

Get under the mistletoe: Kiss Kiss


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## Greg Truby (Jan 15, 2007)

To Joe, I can only respond  × 10^6!  Y'all sure know how to rain on a feller's parade...

Now, to stumble back on topic for a moment.  I'm all for having a nice discussion 'bout how to post more effectively. But I ain't so sure we oughtter be a-postin' links to posts that we find lacking.  Whether the post is or is not lame ain't my concern; more at tryin' to mind our manners and not point at the kid with the funny ears as mom used ta tell me.  :wink:  Were I the chap that had put up a rather-less-than-brilliant post, I ain't sure how thrilled I'd be at havin' it held up as a shining example of "how not to..." - 'nuf said, I reckon...



> ...I wish more posters would pay more attention to describing their request in the subject line, instead of using generalities...I know that the rules state that one should be specific, but many are not. Perhaps the experts who reply to such a post could gently remind the poster to pay more attention to the subject of their posts...
> -Island Vince



There are boards that are very strict about enforcing this kind of thing.  The moderators here choose to be a bit more laissez-faire about it.  The boards that are Draconian about this also have much lighter traffic, so the enforcement can be done by just a couple of zealous moderators.  We'd need at least a dozen or more; and frankly our moderators have better things to do.


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## the magician (Jan 15, 2007)

It's funny, but I originally posted this merely to have a link to the "Don't KISS me" in my signature. It was never meant to be an active thread, which is why I posted it in the Test area, figuring it would be ignored, overlooked, and eventually pass into the back pages and out of view.  But things can take on a life of their own sometimes - "It's alive.  A-LIIIIVE I tell you!!!" - and there you are.

And while I don't feel I'm holding any poster up for ridicule, but simply linking to examples of the topic - and most of these posters would I think agree that they were a little too simplistic in their original post - I'll defer to a consensus and take down the links.  Of course, any mod can do that too, so I'm at your mercy anyway.

Nonetheless, enjoying the discussion.

buenos dias,


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## Greg Truby (Jan 15, 2007)

> It's funny, but I originally posted this merely to have a link to the "Don't KISS me" in my signature. It was never meant to be an active thread, which is why I posted it in the Test area, figuring it would be ignored, overlooked, and eventually pass into the back pages and out of view...
> -the magician



Ahhh, shucks, yer just sayin' that to make me feel good after all the spiteful things that vicious von pookie and mean jm14 said 'bout me not bein' responsible fer gettin' dis here thread tossed into the lounge...


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## Island Vince (Jan 15, 2007)

Greetings, El Mago
Re: "It's alive.  A-LIIIIVE I tell you!!!"
It may well be alive, but is it still sentient? As an Iranian friend of mine once exclaimed, "You call this living!?"

My attempt at resuscitaion;
The acronym KISS, in all its 'SS' derivative forms is just another way of expressing, "Get to the bloody point!" I agree with your main premise, but I have also found that when you 'force' someone to 
A) carefully consider their problem, and then
B) carefully articulate their request,
the solution often presents itself. In other words, the answer lies in the question. I think it's fair to speculate that one's coding acumen increases in direct proportion to the degree of though given to solving his/her problem by him/herself. Is this a fair argument for KISS? 

Our resident good ole' boy Greg might consider the following advice to those, albeit few, who would rather ask first and think later, "Quit yer doggin, poke yer noggin and git yer code floggin"!

With great respect, (and tongue firmly in cheek),
Vince 

There's also the issue that since we don't pay for the expertise received, ought we not give utmost respect to those who offer their wisdom with only a "thank you", if that, as compensation?


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## the magician (Jan 15, 2007)

Hello, my friend from north of the border, eh? 

While there have been some posts that would benefit greatly from a KISS approach, they are in the minority, as are the kissers to which this post refers.  Sometimes too much info clouds the issue as much as too little fails to illuminate it.

And giving thought to your own problem in an effort to clearly and concisely, yet completely illustrate it often does lead to revelation. As you so eloquently phrased it:


> In other words, the answer lies in the question.



And yes a thank you is always warranted, even if the answer is not forthcoming. 

Some other things I am unliking about posts:
Smugness ("guess I stumped you all!")
Bad spelling and grammar when showing the US flag
Short sign off ("figured it out, thanks") with no sharing explanation

All right, enough for today.

Thanks for chiming in, Vince.


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