# Level indicator



## riaz (Jul 20, 2006)

Just a thought that popped into my head.  I have been a regular/addict on this forum since I joined oh so long ago (wow, nearly a month!).

I started here looking for answers, and have occasionally seen questions where I can also assist.  My problem is trying to figure out at what level to pitch the answer - am I talking to a very experienced person who is stuck and a keyword will prompt her/him to the right avenue, or is it a total newbie who needs hand holding with detailed steps.

If there were some way to identify users' abilities, the answer could be phrased accordingly.  What do you think?

Levels could range from rookie, basic, no VBA, some VBA, medium, expert, I know it all   

Btw, I would class myself as medium with some VBA, so that shoots down my list immediately.

Cheers


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## Andrew Fergus (Jul 20, 2006)

That's a good question.

There are a couple of methods I use when working out how to pitch an answer : first up I take my cue from the general tone of the posters question, what sort of language / technical terms they use, any hints they give about experience with Access or VBA etc, if I'm unsure I sometimes ask, and lastly I try to mirror short questions with short answers and longer questions with answers sufficiently detailed to answer the question.  If I have mis-read the OP (it happens) then they sometimes come back and tell me as much (e.g. "I'm a novice, so can you explain how I do this?").

But a good question nonetheless!

Cheers
Andrew

P.S.  Per you list the 'know it all' wouldn't be asking questions here!


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## riaz (Jul 20, 2006)

Hi Andrew

I see your point.  Its just that I am afraid (nervous?) of giving offense, or causing annoyance, if I misread the level and come in as if explaining to a rookie to a guru.  Conversely, if I have typed in a very short answer and the questioner is a rookie, that's no help either.

What doesn't help (this is another topic altogether) is having people pose questions, but never coming back to tell you how they got on.  A one liner to say it worked would assist when you formulate replies.  I wonder how many of you gurus get thank you messages when you have solved a problem.

Cheers


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## Andrew Fergus (Jul 20, 2006)

Hi riaz

I don't consider myself a guru but from experience about half or less come back and say whether something worked (or not).  For me it's not about the feedback, it's about a) giving something back and b) expanding my own knowledge.  But that said it is nice to get feedback too! 

Don't worry about pitching your answer at the wrong level.  A way around this is to say "Yes this can be done by doing x, y and z.  Post back if you need more detail".  That often works for me.

There was a similar thread on this subject in the lounge not too long ago where various members posted the merits of providing answers versus helping people learn for themselves.  If you find the thread you will find lots of different opinions on this subject - so don't worry about it!  Lastly beware - for once you answer a few questions you might find it addictive!

Cheers, Andrew


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## lenze (Jul 20, 2006)

Aaron Blood did this several years ago and I have found it quite useful for diagnostic testing purposes.
http://www.xl-logic.com/user_scale.html

lenze


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## Greg Truby (Jul 20, 2006)

Your question is a good one.  And Andrew's response(s) are good. I would add that just as there is a learning curve to Excel, there is something of a learning curve to forum participation.  As you continue to read posts and when you can, answer questions, you'll get a better sense of when to be succint and when to be didactic.  As Andrews already said, you can generally get a feel for a poster's experience with Excel just by the context/content of the post. 

For example - here all I need is a very succint answer on where this information is located in the Excel object model.  Whereas, here I was looking for longer, more informative answers.  But in both posts you should be able to see that I was not an Excel newbie (at least I hope it's apparent), even though at the time I posted these questions, I had only a few hundred posts to my credit.


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## riaz (Jul 20, 2006)

Lenze's classifications seem ideal to use for starters.  I would now call myself intermediate and a half (can't do pivot tables, they frighten me so I never looked at them   ) but do write macros and act as help desk when IT is "too busy".

I agree with Greg and Andrew too.   The tone is the thing.  And I'll learn from my mistakes, unless they are fun to make, then I'll do them all over again....

Off now for a short break to London.  See you in about a week, unless I can snitch a computer and some time.  You can tell I have it bad.  I seem to spend hours here "researching".


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## Greg Truby (Jul 20, 2006)

Learn pivots.  They are amazingly powerful.  Once you get the knack, you'll wonder how you ever lived without them.


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## Bob Rooney (Jul 28, 2006)

> I would now call myself intermediate and a half (can't do pivot tables, they frighten me so I never looked at them   ) but do write macros and act as help desk when IT is "too busy".



Your IT department has a clue about Excel?  Impressive.  I can't recall any that were beyond the novice stage with the app.  Their strengths certainly are in other areas and applications, but not Excel.


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## lenze (Jul 28, 2006)

> Your IT department has a clue about Excel? Impressive. I can't recall any that were beyond the novice stage with the app. Their strengths certainly are in other areas and applications, but not Excel.


So true, and the sad part is, they THINK they know it. I have won a lot of free lunches from IT guys who told me I couldn't do something in Excel.

lenze


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## Greg Truby (Jul 28, 2006)

> ...I have won a lot of free lunches from IT guys who told me I couldn't do something in Excel.
> -lenze


How do you ****** them into taking the bet?  Obviously they don't know you're a *MrExcel MVP!*


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## lenze (Jul 28, 2006)

> How do you ****** them into taking the bet? Obviously they don't know you're a MrExcel MVP!



This was when I was working for the MT DOT (I'm semi retired now) and you can only imagine the egos of most state employees. And of course, none of them have even heard of MrExcel. I used to tell them, "If you can think *it*, I can do it". Drove them crazy  

lenze

Edit in bold


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## Greg Truby (Jul 28, 2006)

> ...I used to tell them, "If you can think, I can do it"...
> -lenze



Perhaps you meant to write _"...I used to tell them, "If you can think *it*, I can do it"..."_?  Or then again, maybe you didn't


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## hatman (Aug 3, 2006)

> Learn pivots.  They are amazingly powerful.  Once you get the knack, you'll wonder how you ever lived without them.



Okay Greg, you've got my attention: I've been at this for a while now.  If you can dream it, I can do it in Excel.  But I have never built a pivot table.  Ever.  I always saw them as a lame attempt to emulate some limited Access functionality within a spreadsheet.  And quite frankly, my data is typically so sparse that Access would be too big of a hammer for the problem.  Am I missing something?


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## Greg Truby (Aug 3, 2006)

Paul,Perhaps I should have qualified that remark.  If you work with any significant data extracts then you'll find Pivot Tables are fantastic.  In my particular case we run all of our core transactions on a mainframe.  Since I hate having to go hat-in-hand to IS and await for the Steering Committee to prioritize my project and then wait for our IS guys to design, code, document and now jump through all the Sarbanes Oxley BS, I long ago learned how to extract data sets extracted from the VSAM files and FTP them to my PC.  So I frequently have thousands or tens of thousands of transactions to sort through.  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## Greg Truby (Aug 3, 2006)

Say I wanted to know how many lines each customer ordered.  It took me 27 seconds to create this...Book10.xlsABCD3Count of CUST PO4CUST NAMETotal5SPA76SPU157SCI358Grand Total57Sheet4

Maybe I want to know how many pieces each customer ordered...Book10.xlsABCD3Sum of QTY4CUST NAMETotal5SPA156SPU347SCI558Grand Total104Sheet4

That took eleven seconds to do...

Or how about pieces shipped on each carrier by day...Book10.xlsABCD3Sum of QTYCARRIER41ST ALLOCATION DATE5XFXGrand Total5Sat 02/25/061534496Mon 02/27/0655557Grand Total7034104Sheet4

Nineteen seconds to do that.

By carrier by customer? Nine seconds later...Book10.xlsABCDEFG3Sum of QTYCARRIERCUST NAME45X5X TotalFXFX TotalGrand Total51ST ALLOCATION DATESPASCISPU6Sat 02/25/0615153434497Mon 02/27/065555558Grand Total1555703434104Sheet4

As you can see, very quick to get whatever you want.  And this just scratches the surface...


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## hatman (Aug 3, 2006)

Okay, you are showing me just about what I was expecting: lots of data ==>> concise summaries/reports.  In my life as an engineer, I rarely see data like, and when I do, my required manipulations don't really lend themselves to that type of drill-down.

Thanx for the insight, I will definitely keep it in my back pocket and try my hand at applying it if I ever see anything like that.


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## lenze (Aug 3, 2006)

Bill agrees:





> Pivot tables are the most powerful feature in Excel. A basic pivot table will allow you to summarize 50,000 rows of transactional data in seconds with just a few mouse clicks. White collar productivity would skyrocket if everyone knew how to use pivot tables.



lenze


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## Greg Truby (Aug 3, 2006)

> Bill agrees...
> -lenze



Just a wee clarification -- that'd be our Bill; Bill Jelen not M$' Mr. Gates.  And for those that don't know where that quote came from but now think pivots might be worth learning more about...some additional reading material can be purchased here.


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## Domski (Aug 10, 2006)

I couldn't manage without pivot tables!!!

Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I tried summarising some pretty extensive data (50,000 employees worth of pay data for a year) on Monday using SUMPRODUCT and the formula took all afternoon to calculate for just one month (actually I went home and left it going so not sure how long it took).

I then had a moment of clarity during the night and realised how to do it using pivots and I had the other eleven months summarised an hour and a half after getting to work the following morning.

Learn them, they're legendary  :wink: !!!


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## hatman (Aug 11, 2006)

> I couldn't manage without pivot tables!!!
> 
> Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I tried summarising some pretty extensive data (50,000 employees worth of pay data for a year) on Monday using SUMPRODUCT and the formula took all afternoon to calculate for just one month (actually I went home and left it going so not sure how long it took).
> 
> ...



Yes, I see how a pivot-table is perfect for that application...

The only challenge from my personal point of view is that I would need to fabricate data that lends itself to a pivot-table structure... and that almost defeats the purpose of the lesson.  I would like to add them to my arsenal, but I have yet to come across data in my daily duties where that type of data drill-down would even be remotely useful.

Just to give a sample of my most data intensive workbook:

This is a sample from a table with 328 members, representing the coded part numbers for electrical connectors on a piece of Space Station hardware:Node_3_Electrical_Tool_Crossref_ver_1-1.xlsABCDEFG1ORUNameORUPartNumberItemSchematicIDPartNumberofItemORDrawingWherePinoutSchematicisLocatedConnectorIDConnectorPartNumber2WPAAAAA107J1NATC00T11N98PB3WPAAAAA107J2NATC00T11N35PN4WPAASDA108J1NATC07T15N35PN5WPACatalyticReactorSV825455-10229SV826686-1J1NATC00T11N35PA6WPACatalyticReactorSV825455-10231SV825503-2J1NATC00T11N35PN7WPACatalyticReactorSV825455-11126-1SV825457-1J1NATC00T11N35PN8WPACatalyticReactorSV825455-17047-1SV825455J3NATC00T13N35PNHardware

And here is a sample from one of 5 other tables on 5 sepearate sheets that have 50-250 members... this particular table represents parts numbers for Test Cables, with the part numbers for the electrical connectors on each end:Node_3_Electrical_Tool_Crossref_ver_1-1.xlsABCDEFG1ConnectorID(itemside)ConnectorPartNumber(itemside)TestToolPartNumberTestToolDescriptionConnectorID(out)ConnectorPartNumber(out)Notes(fortoolorconnector)2P1D38999/26FD35SNSV825464CT206ReactorHealthHarness#1P1TBD38999/26FD35PNValves3VLV4D38999/26FB35SASV825464CT207CatReactorO2ManifoldCablePRIGPT06A-10-6S4VLV5D38999/26FB35SNSV825464CT207CatReactorO2ManifoldCablePRIGPT06A-10-6S5P1D38999/26FD35PNSV825464CT208CatReactorO2ManifoldCable#2PRIGPT06A-10-6S6P1D38999/26FB98SASV825487CT208GLSHarness#1P1TBD38999/26FB98PAHeaters7P2D38999/26FB98SNSV825487CT209GLSHarness#2P2TBD38999/26FB35PN8P3D38999/26FC35SNSV825487CT210GLSHarness#3P3TBD38999/26FC35PN(9)rtdSignalsandLiquidSensor9P1D38999/26FE35SNSV825502CT202WaterStorageHarnessP1-TBD38999/26FE35PNDon'tUseonWasteWaterORUCable

Now, how would a pivot table tell me that the test tool listed in row 3 of table 2 is one of several tools in that table that will connect with the hardware listed in row 5 of table 1?  Once I know that I need to find all tools that have a D38999/26FB35SA connector listed in column B or F, an autofilter is almost the right tool... except that I can't get the union of matches in both columns.  I ended up doing this with a whole slew of Match() and Index() formulas, that look like this: =MATCH(B3,INDIRECT($C$3&"!B1"):INDIRECT($C$3&"!B"&$A$1),0) and =MATCH($B$3,INDIRECT($C$3&"!F1"):INDIRECT($C$3&"!F"&$A$1),0) so I can obtain matches in BOTH columns, where C3 contains the name of the sheet (and yes, a year later, I DO, in fact see how I could make these formulas a little bit more compact, but I just don't feel like taking the time to make the changes in all 50 rows by 15 columns in each of 7 sheets, even though I might see a noticeable gain in calculation speed).  I defy you to demonstrate how a Pivot Table would be more applicable in this situation.

I grant you that pivot tables are amazingly powerful for drill-down of large data sets... but I guess I'm still stuck on the fact that if you don't need to do data drill downs, and/or your data sets are TINY, a pivot-table is at best too big of a hammer, at worst it just isn't applicable.

I do, however, appreciate your opinion, and as I said to greg: now that I have a better appreciation for what they are good for, I will be keeping pivot tables in reserve for a time when I may find them useful.


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## gingerafro (Aug 11, 2006)

I agree. A pivot table won't really help there.  You could use one, but it wasn't designed to solve the kind of question you are asking.

As soon as you start intensively using INDEX/MATCH and VLOOKUP, what you really want is a basic MSAccess database...


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## hatman (Aug 11, 2006)

> As soon as you start intensively using INDEX/MATCH and VLOOKUP, what you really want is a basic MSAccess database...



Yup.  I weighed the pros and cons of an Access database when I first started building the file, realizing that Access would probably be the better way to go.  In the end, I figured that I could save time by staying in an environment that I was a little bit more familiar with (Excel).  At the time, I was a new employee here with my first access to Access... at my previous company, they didn;t allow anybody except IT to have access to Access because then people would have too much access to the data, and that would be bad since IT hadn't taken any measures to protect the data from corruption or damage.

Perhaps if I get brought onboard for the next big contract, someone will give me resources to develop this concept in a better environment (Access)... as it was, I built the current file in my copious amounts of free time


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## gingerafro (Aug 11, 2006)

I always worry when I start building and solving things in my 'free time'.  It get all pleased with myself and then bothered that I should have been playing golf / driking / watching football instead.

way to go off thread.
so to get back on...

With regards to VBA, I have always thought (as when learning any language) the skills should be broken down into Reading, Writing, Listening and Speaking.  You are then graded as Basic, Conversational, Fluent.  Listening and Speaking may sound a bit strange, but I'd explain them as follows.

Reading - See code and know what it does.
Writing - Write code from altering the macro recorder to going from scratch
Listening - You are told things like Event, Object and how a macro works and understand
Speaking - As per listening.

Back on thread...


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## hatman (Aug 11, 2006)

> I always worry when I start building and solving things in my 'free time'.  It get all pleased with myself and then bothered that I should have been playing golf / driking / watching football instead.
> [/qoute]
> 
> Well, my use of the phrase Copious Amounts of Free Time was an obscure reference to a Tom Lehrer song.
> ...


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## gingerafro (Aug 11, 2006)

The Tom Lehrer reference went whizzing me by.  Best I could do was to use apostrophes.

I only berated myself for going off-topic because I wanted to bring my brilliant VBA suggestion into the conversation.

My bonfire is now just smouldering.


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## hatman (Aug 11, 2006)

I did NOT intend to damp down your fire.  Let it flare up, hot and bright!  Your knowledge is a candle, let others be illuminated by it!

Feel better?    

Seriously, if you think thread is off topic, check out the one where I asked about the MrExcel MVP designation the other day... Greg Truby threw this one off into a tail-spin on the 4th post...


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## gingerafro (Aug 11, 2006)

> Feel better?



much. thank you.  But now instead of bringing my idea to the fore, I am going to bury it under an avalanche of posts.

now I hope you have understood my sarcasm, as unfortunately you cannot see my cheeky grin as I write.
So, to fulfil my ambition - how do you represent sarcasm and the like in the forum to let others know you are only joking?


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## hatman (Aug 11, 2006)

Oh, I spotted the sarcasm immediately, which is why I responded in kind.  maybe we need some new emoticons... though I am still sure what an ironic emoticon would look like... make a smiley face wearing a pieces of Chain Maille (remember, you can combine Irony and Carbony to make Steely)


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