# Gerund vs Present Participle



## Lewiy (Aug 12, 2008)

(Possibly one for Emma this!!)

I need to settle a dispute....take the following sentance:

"He is waiting for his friend to return from her break before going on his."

Is "going" acting as a gerund or a present participle?


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## RoryA (Aug 12, 2008)

It's a gerund.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

Um, I'm not sure. A clause with a gerund in should act as a noun in the whole sentence, and I don't think this does...

EDIT - but I don't think it's acting as an adjective either. Have posted the question on another forum that actually has a Pedants' Corner just for such questions


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## Lewiy (Aug 12, 2008)

cornflakegirl said:


> Um, I'm not sure. A clause with a gerund in should act as a noun in the whole sentence, and I don't think this does...
> 
> EDIT - but I don't think it's acting as an adjective either. Have posted the question on another forum that actually has a Pedants' Corner just for such questions


 
Thanks!!  I just thought this was an interesting question because it's not really clear cut.  Personally, I think that it's still acting as a verb, because the noun is "break" and you also have the pronoun "his".  So I can't see it possibly acting as any kind of noun!!

I don't mind being proven wrong on this....I just would like to know the reasoning behind it!!!


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## RoryA (Aug 12, 2008)

I would have said it is the object of the before preposition and as such is a nominal. As in:
"Before doing your taxes, you should call your accountant."
where I would say doing is a gerund.
It's probably a borderline case though.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

I think you could replace the phrase with "He is waiting for summer before leaving" and retain essentially the same grammatical construction (just to get rid of the extraneous confusion of pronouns etc).

Pretty much everyone on the other site is voting for present participle, because going / leaving doesn't seem to be acting as a noun.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

Apparently I took forever to type that last post, as I hadn't seen Rory's latest contribution - have copied it to the other thread to fuel debate.

Interesting thought from the other side - it isn't a gerund because in other languages it would be an infinitive (eg French avant d'aller) - not sure the argument is watertight...


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## RoryA (Aug 12, 2008)

About as watertight as a colander!


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

But, thinking about it more, I still can't find a noun that I can slot into "He is waiting for summer before leaving" instead of "leaving" - does before have to have an object?


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

Okay, this link seems to agree with Rory...


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

I'll let you know if there are any strong counter-arguments from the other side, but I think I'm convinced. Thanks for the education Rory (is there anything you don't know?) - and Lewiy, thank you for the diversion!


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## RoryA (Aug 12, 2008)

I don't know half the stuff I should know, and I know a lot of stuff that's of no use to anyone! Everything in between, I just state as fact and see what happens...  (that's my philosophy training)


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

Yeah, I find that works quite well too 

(Are you really a philosopher? I switched to philosophy in my final year at uni, after they gently suggested maths wasn't the subject for me, and I loved it. Although trying to argue against positions that I "knew" were wrong, but couldn't work out why, did my head in!)


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## RoryA (Aug 12, 2008)

Yep - that's what my degree is in. Not worth the paper it's printed on, as you would expect!


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## Lewiy (Aug 12, 2008)

> Although trying to argue against positions that I "knew" were wrong, but couldn't work out why, did my head in!)


 
But it can be fun trying sometimes....and rewarding when you manage to convince someone!!  Have you seen the film Thank You For Smoking?  If not, I highly recommend it to anyone interested in those kinds of arguments....taught me a thing or two!!

I'm a mathematician myself so I never had to argue anything at school really.....just have to enjoy what I can from "intellectual" conversation.

And thanks to both of you for your input here.  At least I can sleep soundly tonight knowing that the original question was genuinely quite a tricky one and worth discussing.....nothing worse than getting yourself into these kinds of situations only to discover that you were just simply wrong!!!


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## Joe4 (Aug 12, 2008)

Its discussions like these that remind me why I majored in Mathematics and not English!


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

Lewiy said:


> But it can be fun trying sometimes....and rewarding when you manage to convince someone!!



I was 20, had only a few months of formal philosophy training, and was arguing with PhD students and lecturers who had heard the material dozens of times before. Not surprisingly, I didn't convince anyone.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

Joe4 said:


> Its discussions like these that remind me why I majored in Mathematics and not English!



Joe - it's grammar - it practically *is* mathematics!


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## Joe4 (Aug 12, 2008)

> Joe - it's grammar - it practically is mathematics!


Then I'd love to see the formulas!

The English language has so many rule exceptions, its maddening!


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## DonkeyOte (Aug 12, 2008)

Another reason I love Mr Excel.

I used to think *I* was weird... 

I had never even heard of a Gerund... sounds something more suited to "Time Team" and archaeology to me... but I'm an Essex boy so I know little of nothing.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

You used to think you were weird... but now you're a donkey?


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## Richard Schollar (Aug 12, 2008)

Anybody miss me?

The lounge is chock a block full of Rory/Emma posts and I've only been gone a couple of days!


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

Yeah, I missed you - I had that stupid tag all the time you were gone!


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## Richard Schollar (Aug 12, 2008)

Don't blame me - it was Truby's idea!  I told him he should offer to change you back but he wasn't having any of it.  I turned you back to 'normal' when I saw your post on it...


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 12, 2008)

That'll teach me to take Greg's name in vain! 

(Although I do feel strangely naked without it. Odd how these things grow on you. Like a skin disease...)


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## RoryA (Aug 12, 2008)

RichardSchollar said:


> I turned you back to 'normal' ...


 
...relatively speaking...


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## Greg Truby (Aug 12, 2008)

RichardSchollar said:


> Anybody miss me?


 
*OH GOOD LORD!!!* Ya ain't been gone a week. Ya barely been outta this pub 'n' in the sunshine (that's what we call the bright light one sees out-of- doors) fer three or four days. Kindly turn the keyboard and screen over to Mrs. Schollar.

_Dear Mrs. Schollar,_

_Just as blackberry users have rechristened them "crackberries" due to their addictive nature, I fear that Richard has developed a 10-post a day addiction to online forums. _

_Please rummage through Richard's kit and check for notebook computers, wireless devices and so forth. In short, if it has a flat and shiny surface, then despite Richard's preposterous assertion that it's "just a wee mirror, dear"; it is not. It is a screen of some sort and needs to be confiscated. _

_Please understand that Richard may get the shakes due to sudden forum withdrawal and we trust that you shall nurse Richard through this difficult time. We recognize that keeping Richard entertained may not fit your definition of a proper holiday, but we appreciate you “taking one for the team”. _

_Kindest regards,_


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## Richard Schollar (Aug 12, 2008)

Maybe that should have been 'abnormal' instead?


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## Richard Schollar (Aug 12, 2008)

Greg Truby said:


> *OH GOOD LORD!!!* Ya ain't been gone a week.



Sadly the holiday didn't quite turn out as hoped for - the weather in North Devon has been non-stop rain for 4 days' straight.  The prospect of being cooped up in the caravan with the 3 little ones (who were not exactly thrilled to be locked up with nothing to do) just wasn't something my wife or I could face for the remaining 4 days.  Hence we packed up and came back this morning.

And no, I didn't read any of that book (at all)!


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## Stormseed (Aug 12, 2008)

*T*his gossip group should be named "UK Chat Arena", I reckon


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## Lewiy (Aug 12, 2008)

> that's what we call the bright light one sees out-of- doors




Is this some kind of phenomenon you guys get outside the UK?  All I see when I look out the door is this kinda wet stuff falling to the ground.........

And Richard, you're in Basingstoke right?  It falls harder there, I don't blame you for not venturing out.


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## Greg Truby (Aug 12, 2008)

In that case, ga'head 'n' order a pint 'n' post away. Sorry the weather didn't cooperate. A chap I work with got hitched this weekend. Normally this time of year most places in the Midwest are hotter'n a firecracker, so they planned an indoor weddin'. 'Twas a good move, rained six inches there Saturday. Yet here, 100 miles east of where he was, we didn't get a drop.


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## DonkeyOte (Aug 12, 2008)

Richard, I didn't have you down as a Caravan-Man !


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## Richard Schollar (Aug 12, 2008)

lasw10 said:


> Richard, I didn't have you down as a Caravan-Man !



Believe me Luke, never again!  Actually, the caravan (for our American chums read: trailer) really wasn't bad at all.  It was just the weather made it pants.  But it's the last holiday for a while that I have where we actually go away from home with the kids.  Days out from now on!


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## schielrn (Aug 12, 2008)

RichardSchollar said:


> the caravan (for our American chums read: trailer)


I'm glad you cleared that up because I never new a caravan was a trailer in the UK.

Thanks.


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## Joe4 (Aug 12, 2008)

> I'm glad you cleared that up because I never new a caravan was a trailer in the UK.


Yep, over here if you say "caravan", I think most of us Americans would think "mini-van", because Dodge makes a mini-van called the "Caravan".


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## Cindy Ellis (Aug 12, 2008)

I've heard it said that the USA and UK are two countries separated by a common language.  On that note...
How bad is it if something is "pants", as in "the weather made it pants"?  In the states, pants are something we wear.  Really.  To work.  Every day.
If someone has gone "librarian-poo", what kind of doctor should we call? 
If Emma were from the states, she would have caught the extraneous apostrophe in "4 days' straight"...it took me a while to remember that there's a surplus of them in some parts of the world 
Cindy


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## yytsunamiyy (Aug 12, 2008)

What with being a german and all that I can't help cindy with her pants , but I can enlighten her as to the librarian poo 

There is an author called Terry Pratchet, who writes fantasy, in particular the DiscWorld series. In this series of books, a recurring figure is the librarian of the(magic) unseen university, who has gotten turned into an Orang Utan by a magical accident a long time ago. Everybody is of course used to him being an Orang Utan. However, every now and then a new character is introduced to the cast of thousands. when he crosses the way of the librarian and is unfortunate enough to call him a monkey, the librarian will go totally librarian poo - for he is an APE, not a MONKEY!

hope that clears that up at least...


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## Fazza (Aug 12, 2008)

*quick OT detour*

Welcome back, already(!!), Richard.

I wonder sometimes why so many people live where the weather is miserable.

Mid-winter here in Perth. Barely a cloud all week. Must be about 20°C every day. Clear, starry nights. When I was living in Cairns, also clear skies most winter days - just a bit warmer there. Usually 28°C in winter. Great beach weather.

Take it easy. Enjoy the break, mate. Regards, Fazza


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*

Richard - sorry to hear about your holiday - cooped up children are no fun. I think it's supposed to be nicer tomorrow and Friday (assuming you believe in weather forecasts) - have you got some good trips planned? The Mary Rose is always a fun day out...

Cindy - pants means "a bit rubbish". Pants are also something we wear. Really. To work. Every day. But under our trousers.  (Oh, and welcome to the podium!)

yytsunamiyy - TP is a funny, funny man. I own just about everything he's written.

Fazza - you are very mean!


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## RoryA (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*



cornflakegirl said:


> The Mary Rose is always a fun day out...


 
unless you went on it on 19th July 1545...


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## Stormseed (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*



> Cindy - pants means "a bit rubbish". Pants are also something we wear. Really. To work. Every day. But under our trousers


 
Really ? I never knew  I was in a notion that these were called *underwear* for men and *panties* for women where as *Pants* itself represent *trousers*  Learned something new on the board again, as usual


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*

Stormseed - I think those are US terms. In the UK we would use underwear or pants for men or women, or knickers for just women. And trousers for the outergarment. (A woman referring to her underwear would usually be referring to bra as well as pants.) And of course, if one was wearing a particular style of pants, one might refer to it as a thong. Which isn't a flip-flop...


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## Stormseed (Aug 13, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*



> A woman referring to her underwear would usually be referring to bra as well as pants


 
I used to think it is supposed to be called "INNER WEAR" (all inclusive of Bra, Panties, etc). ? Heck I am confused now 

EDIT: I think Americans wear smart "Boxers". *T*hey *do not know* what is an underwear, I reckon.


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## Joe4 (Aug 13, 2008)

Quote from fazza:


> Mid-winter here in Perth. Barely a cloud all week. Must be about 20°C every day. Clear, starry nights. When I was living in Cairns, also clear skies most winter days - just a bit warmer there. Usually 28°C in winter. Great beach weather.


We loved Cairns when we visited Australia.  My only regret was that we didn't stay there longer.  I would have loved to spend more than one day snorkeling the Great Barrier Reef...

We stayed at a great resort.  We got a kick out of signs around the resort saying "Beware of bandicoots!"  They hardly looked menacing.  I am guessing the sign was meant more for their protection than ours...


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## Fazza (Aug 13, 2008)

I loved Cairns, too. Lived there four years very soon after finishing university (in Brisbane). Did a scuba diving course and plenty of diving on the reef. Also did some free diving, which I much prefer. Played a pool game - underwater hockey - for many years and become proficient at swimming underwater. Met many keen divers who were nearly always good company too. Often enjoyed a beer afterwards, as you do.

In summer, when the beach sand is nearly too hot to walk on and there are potentially lethal jellyfish in the water - Cairns isn't always paradise - we'd swim in the freshwater creeks that flowed in the rainforests down the valleys of the coastal ranges. There are some beautiful places to swim in the rainforest. And no crocodiles there, either.

The reef is another world. It is wonderful to see the dozens & dozens of different brightly colored little fishes. Some are fluorescent colours! And also a treat to see the bigger fishes, sharks, turtles, sting rays, etc.

Been a while since I've been there.


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## Fazza (Aug 13, 2008)

Also, there always seemed to be a party or two on the weekend. The place had a real buzz to it.


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## Joe4 (Aug 13, 2008)

Yeah, it was a real fun place.

We also went to some rainforest zoo/park (Kuranda Rainforest Station) where my wife got to have her picture taken holding a koala.  She thought that was pretty neat.  They also had a 16 foot salty there that they took in because it was eating some farmer's cattle.


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## riaz (Aug 21, 2008)

Joe4 said:


> Yep, over here if you say "caravan", I think most of us Americans would think "mini-van", because Dodge makes a mini-van called the "Caravan".



...and where I come from, it's a line of camels on their way to market, or back, or somewhere...


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## riaz (Aug 21, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*



Stormseed said:


> Really ? I never knew  I was in a notion that these were called *underwear* for men and *panties* for women where as *Pants* itself represent *trousers*  Learned something new on the board again, as usual



also what a dog does, as in his breath came in pants.  Now, why a dog would breathe heavily while wearing trousers, or ladies' unmentionables as the case may be, is beyond me.


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## riaz (Aug 21, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*



cornflakegirl said:


> And of course, if one was wearing a particular style of pants, one might refer to it as a thong. Which isn't a flip-flop...



Emma, aren't thongs what Thinatra thang?


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## Greg Truby (Aug 21, 2008)

*Re: quick OT detour*



riaz said:


> Emma, aren't thongs what Thinatra thang?


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