# London



## Von Pookie (Jul 7, 2005)

I know we've got quite a few posters from in and around London...hope everyone is OK


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## Felix Atagong (Jul 7, 2005)

I have had a few good laughs at my London colleagues, even on this forum, but I can only hope they are all OK. Some of them have become close friends...

To the UK people on Mr. Excel, hope everything is OK with you and your families.


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## Von Pookie (Jul 7, 2005)

I've checked in a little over at Ozgrid.

Jack in the UK, WillR and Chris Davison are all OK.


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## Glaswegian (Jul 7, 2005)

Latest from the BBC

"Metropolitan Police Deputy Assistant Commissioner Brian Paddick confirmed 33 people had died in the blasts on the Underground. 

He said there were 21 confirmed fatalities following the blast at 0856 BST in a tunnel between King's Cross and Russell Square. 

There were seven confirmed deaths after a blast at 0851 BST 100 yards into a tunnel from Liverpool Street station. The train was either a Central Line or Circle Line train. 

And at 0917 BST an explosion on a train coming into Edgware Road underground station blew a hole through a wall onto another train in an adjoining platform. 

Three trains were thought to be involved and there were five confirmed deaths so far, Mr Paddick said. 

He said it was not yet known how many died in the bus blast at 0947 at the junction of Upper Woburn Square and Tavistock Place. 

London Ambulance Service said it had treated 45 patients with serious or critical injuries including burns, amputations, chest and blast injuries and fractured limbs. 

Some 300 more people were treated for minor injuries including lacerations and smoke inhalation, LAS assistant chief officer Russell Smith added."



My thoughts are with the families of those killed and injured.


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## Smitty (Jul 7, 2005)

My thoughts and prayers are with all y'all.

Smitty


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## WillR (Jul 7, 2005)

Andy Pope just checked in OK too...   

Chris, Jack & Andy all work in London so were very lucky... I live an hour away but regularly travel in for work... luckily my train was delayed (usually something I'd moan about) - if it had been on time I'd have been heading towars Liverpool St on the cirle line between 8:30 and 9:00   

Instead we weren't allowed off the train at Euston & returned home.... It's a strange old thing is fate...


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## shades (Jul 7, 2005)

Glad to hear that, Will. Our delays, while triggering impatience (at least in me), can be God directed opportunities/blessings.

Rich


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## Joe4 (Jul 11, 2005)

God bless you all.

Our thoughts and prayers go out to the victims and their families.


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## Tazguy37 (Jul 11, 2005)

What they said.      I'm sure that the thoughts and prayers of everyone in our little cybercommunity go out to all those affected by this tragedy.


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## litrelord (Jul 22, 2005)

Looks like the police have taken the no nonsense approach to suspects now...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4706787.stm

The guy had a bomb round his waist so plain clothes police officers held him down and shot him 5 times.


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## Glaswegian (Jul 22, 2005)

Indeed, no holds barred now.

Just hope I don't get a parking ticket - I shudder to think what the penalty will be......


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## litrelord (Jul 22, 2005)

Ken Livingstone will no doubt want to use this approach for people trying to avoid the congestion charge as well.


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## Glaswegian (Jul 22, 2005)

What I don't understand is how you can shoot someone, in the head, from point blank range, 5 times.  Don't want to sound overly gruesome here, but they must have been struggling to find a target for the last couple of shots?  One of my colleagues claims that the police use a 9mm Browning semi-automatic (although how he came by that information is unclear) but since my knowledge of firearms is non-existant, I don't know what damage such a gun would cause.


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## Oorang (Jul 22, 2005)

Actually the article just said they are TRAINED to shoot for the head if the person is carrying explosives. Not that they succeded. I thought UK police did not carry firearms?


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## Glaswegian (Jul 22, 2005)

Oorang

From the article

_A man has been shot dead by armed officers at Stockwell Tube station, as police hunt four would-be bombers. 
Passenger Mark Whitby told BBC News he had seen a man of Asian appearance shot five times by "plain-clothes police officers" with a handgun. 

"I saw the gun being fired five times into the guy - he is dead," he said. _

UK police don't normally carry guns.  There are specially trianed officers who can use guns when the situation allows, but they normally require authorisation from a very Senior Officer before they are actually allowed to fire.


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## litrelord (Jul 22, 2005)

Does make you wonder though.  Shooting him 5 times without shooting at the torso.  Unless he was shot in the leg(s) first and then the head.  But it said they were already on top of him when they shot.  5 times in the head would surely be much more than was necessary (as would 3 times).  Not that I'm condoning anyone being shot.  If there are mistaken identities then it's going to cause a lotof problems though.


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## Glaswegian (Jul 22, 2005)

litrelord said:
			
		

> If there are mistaken identities then it's going to cause a lot of problems though.


Well quite.

Shooting at the torso may set off explosives wrapped around the body and I guess that, by aiming for the head, they are trying to stop the person setting off the explosives.  Not much good though if they are holding some kind of trigger anyway.  Even with being shot in the head I would have thought that there would still be some kind of involuntary nervous reaction?


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## just_jon (Jul 22, 2005)

The standard procedure is a "double-tap" - twice in the head.

Might have been > 1 man firing, or one man firing _very _rapidly...

Or, maybe he just got caught up in the moment.

But assuming a 9mm. then there's not much left that wouldn't fit into a small soup bowl.


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## Glaswegian (Jul 22, 2005)

just_jon said:
			
		

> But assuming a 9mm. then there's not much left that wouldn't fit into a small soup bowl.



Mmm...that's what I thought (or tried NOT to think about...).


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## litrelord (Jul 22, 2005)

Well the report (as it stands at the moment) says one handgun but more than one policeman so just one person firing.  Unless they took turns of course.


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## Oorang (Jul 22, 2005)

When you fire five rounds in quick succession you get "Muzzle Climb" if five rounds hit him (which is all it says, it does NOT say he was hit in the head) you can figure the first round would be the best aimed and all succeeding rounds would be a little higher. Most officers are taught to aim a little low and allow the climb to compensate. 
Also when you are taught to fire a weapon you aim for the area most likely to create a hit. Ergo the torso. However in this situation you would have to have your head override your training and fire for the head. 
So you have to figure out where the officer would have been most likely to aim the first round. Knowing that the head is a hard target and knowing the torso is off limits, I would assume he would have aimed his first round at the base of the skull and the following five hits would have "walked" upwards. HOWEVER as it was a moving target in a crowded area with multiple other factors like trains to affect your aim and concentration, there is no telling where that first round actually hit. Given that 5 rounds hit him one is forced to conclude that even if not initially or successfully he probably sustained multiple gunshots to the head. The first round to hit the skull might not have been through and through but that would mean that it would probably have bounced around the cranial cavity. Successive rounds would have an increasing chance of through and through penetration as the skull weakens. The size of the exit wound would depend on the tumble of the bullet (determined by range). But since he was struck form behind and entrance wounds are smaller than exit wounds if there was full penetration on all rounds we would probably have one faceless criminal. Other wise you just have a soggy skull in the back.


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## litrelord (Jul 22, 2005)

Should we be worried about you Oorang?  

Anyway, I was basing it on the eyewitness acount (which could easily prove false) that said 



> "One of them was carrying a black handgun - it looked like an automatic - they pushed him to the floor, bundled on top of him and unloaded five shots into him," he said.



So he was on the floor and still when they shot him.  I'm not saying it's the wrong thing to do. Perhaps you need 5 shots if it's in the back of the head to make sure the person is dead.  I don't want to think too much about it if possible.  Hopefully that's information I'll never need to know.  

Still quite shocking though if you can imagine how the scene must've unfolded.


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## Smitty (Jul 22, 2005)

> Looks like the police have taken the no nonsense approach to suspects now...


Good.

Although it does remind me of NYC in the 70's when one particular incident caused a significant change in the Police dept's warning shot policy:  Officer's comments at the investigation (in your best Brooklyn accent): "The perpertator refused to stop, so I fired a warning shot that proceeded to strike him in the back of the head."   

Oorang good analysis.  Note that depending on the load and the target a 9mm can be a pretty light weapon.  Case in point the Hollywood bank robbery a few years ago.  But in the hands of special forces, well that's a different ball game.  As for human head shots, just about anything'll do; it depends on how much you want on you.  :wink: 

Smitty


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## al_b_cnu (Jul 22, 2005)

Pennysaver - perhaps you'd like to revise your slogan:
It's not the fall that kills you but the bullets in the head?

 

Alan


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## Greg Truby (Jul 22, 2005)

It will be interesting to see what more we learn.  But if I was the officer and the guy was wearing a bomb, and my fellow officers, innocent bystanders and myself were within the probable blast radius and it looked like he was reachin' for a switch -- I'd empty the clip if I thought more shots meant lessening the chance of him successfully hitting the trigger.


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## just_jon (Jul 22, 2005)

> > Unless they took turns of course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## _Jarrod_ (Jul 22, 2005)

If I was  trying to stop the guy from setting off his bomb, I'd keep squeezing until my gun was empty.  It's a little gruesome, but better to be safe and protect yourself and those around you imo.


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## Smitty (Jul 23, 2005)

> Pennysaver - perhaps you'd like to revise your slogan:
> It's not the fall that kills you but the bullets in the head?


I'll consider it, but only if I go back to my last line of work, which often required carrying a gun(s).

I'll actually be quite impressed if the gun was shot 5x and 5 bullets entered the target/suspect.  Case in point a recent LAPD shooting where over 130 rounds were fired at a suspect vehicle and the guy was hit once.  (There have been several such incidents recently   ).

As Ted Nugent said: "Gun control is being able to hit what you aim at..."

(Please note that my tone is not one of political divisiveness, but just commentary...hence the nature of the Lounge)

But before we go overboard thinking it was brutality, overkill (literally), etc., let's think about the situation and the overwhelming desire to protect and still allow *freedom* to exist.  I think Israeli's might have a differing viewpoint regarding shooting people who run away, but since I'm not about to go there, I can't say for sure. 

As a friend of mine who used to fly Cobras and Apaches says: "You can run, but you'll just die tired."

Maybe I'll change my sig to that.

Smitty

P.S. If you hadn't noticed, this is a war; not necessarily specifically aimed at you or me, but anyone who is not like "them", and unless you live in someplace like Northern Saskatchewan, it is going to be a part of your world.  So in addition to gangs, road rage, work, the normal crime we deal with, etc., you have this.  Whether you like it or not.


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## Norie (Jul 23, 2005)

It's just been announced the guy had no connections with the bombings or bombers.

Apparently he lived in a block of flats that was under observation.

Oh, and he was dressed 'suspiciously'. whatever that means.


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## Smitty (Jul 23, 2005)

> It's just been announced the guy had no connections with the bombings or bombers.
> 
> Apparently he lived in a block of flats that was under observation.
> 
> Oh, and he was dressed 'suspiciously'.


I just heard that on the radio.  That's a bummer and it's going to detract focus from the people who started it.  Regardless, if you run from the police, even if you've done nothing wrong, then the assumption is that you have or were/are about to.  Police 1, Moron 0.  

Smitty


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## Andrew Fergus (Jul 23, 2005)

BBC article here:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4711021.stm


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