# Starbucks and water and gas! Oh my!



## FinancialAnalystKid (Aug 31, 2005)

Current gas price at my local station: $3.11 a gallon.

Are skies really blue somewhere over the rainbow? In the case of gas prices, I don't think so. I hope so. I can dare to dream. 

I NEED gas so I pay the continued increase in gas price without complaints because there’s no other alternative for me at the moment. I NEED water but I can choose to pay a buck for 24 ounces of water or find a water fountain and drink it for free. I NEED coffee and it has to be Starbucks Coffee or I’ll just be pissed off all day.

I drive a minimum of 38 miles a day to and from work. My car gets a combined 22 mpg so it costs about $5.37 a day to drive to and from work. At five days a week that’s $26.85 a week. In a month’s time I pay approximately a minimum of $107.44 for gas. That’s an 11% increase in my gas expense from a year ago. But we're not in Kansas anymore.

The Katrina disaster is also expected to effect gas prices as well. So expect gas prices to rise in the near future.

I’m not going to complain that I paid $3.11 for a gallon of gas. I need it, I’ll pay it. I hear people complain about gas prices all the while holding a 24 ounce bottle of water that they paid a dollar for at a 7-11. Gas is a scarce resource. Water is everywhere. You can drink water for free yet people throw money at water companies by paying more than $5.00 a gallon for it without complaining.

I was at Vons the other morning and walked by the Starbucks counter and heard a lady complain about gas prices to another person in line. And she was buying a cup of coffee for $1.85! She can make Starbucks coffee at home with a $9.95 bag of whole bean coffee. That’s like paying approximately 40 cents for a each cup of coffee. And she was really REALLY bitching about gas prices. YO, DOROTHY! You're paying an extra 300% for a cup coffee in order to feed your addiction! Stop the complaining!

I’m not going to complain about gas prices. I’m just going to watch my mileage a little bit more while I enjoy my 40 cent cup of STARBUCKS COFFEE every day to the very last drop. And maybe, somewhere over the rainbow, skies are blue. And if I dare to dream of gas prices coming down, maybe my dreams will come true.


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## Cbrine (Aug 31, 2005)

FAK,
  Very poetic.

One problem with the rant......

Does your Starbucks coffee price go up and down by 5-20% every 4 hours or so?


Cal

PS-See tag line.


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## Glaswegian (Aug 31, 2005)

Well, I just filled up yesterday and the price was 90p per litre.  That works out at £3.41 per gallon or nearly $7 US.  Ok so 70% of that price goes to Gordon Brown in tax but I'm of the opinion (and at the risk of starting an international incident here) that drivers in the US have been too used to paying almost nothing for petrol in the past.  I am sorry that this will affect many people in rural areas (as it does in the north of Scotland) but until someone comes up with a compact fusion reactor, I believe that prices will continue to rise.  You could argue that this is forcing manufacturers to make their vehicles more efficient and with smaller engines and it seems to be paying off in Europe, but perhaps not in the US.

BTW I prefer Cafe Nero.


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## Norie (Aug 31, 2005)

FinancialAnalystKid

The reason that your gas/petrol prices are so high is because of the effect that Hurricane Katrina has taken on the rigs out in the Gulf of Mexico, they can't produce at the moment.

Which apparently supply 25% of the world's oil.

That castratrophe not only jacked up the oil price but it also killed a lot of people and made a lot more homeless.


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## RichardS (Aug 31, 2005)

Hurricane Katrina, an absolute tragedy. All over the papers here in Australia. Our thoughts are with all the millions of people effected by this disaster, and the coming months of heartache as they try to rebuild their lives.

On the subject of fuel, we're paying about $1.20 a litre, which is about US$7.20 a gallon. It was at that level prior to Katrina, so is only going to go higher. Our oil prices are linked to world prices, despite the fact we produce most of our own. As in the UK, Mr Costello (Treasurer) reaps huge benefits from this. The vast distances some people have to travel in this country, and heavy reliance on road transport for freight, mean oil prices effect the cost of just about everything. But as FAK says, we need it, we'll pay for it. At least I've got a roof over my head, unlike so many in the Gulf states of USA.

Richard

Edit: Just filled up at $1.26. That's US$4.31/gallon. My currency conversion is no good.


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## Norie (Aug 31, 2005)

Could we please get off the fact that we are paying more for our petrol/diesel each day and focus on the reasons why?

The reason why gas (or whatever you want to call it) prices have recently been hiked in the US is because of the hurricane.

This will affect prices throughout the world because the region hit by that 'natural' disaster was one of the largest oil producing areas in the world.

Where people died.

FinancialAnalystKid

You drive a minimum of 38 miles to/from work?

Get a bike.


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## Smitty (Sep 1, 2005)

What happened to Nawlins and the Deep South is a true tragedy; I've given my Red Cross $, and my thoughts and prayers go out to all of those who have or will suffer losses. Fortunately, many had the resources to leave in time (except the dumass tourists, who aparrently lacked a resource called good judgement and stayed...) Unlike with the tsunami, they all had plenty of warning. 

It's going to take a long time to rebuild from that one. And that's if the scumbag looters leave anything that the 'cane didn't FUBAR. 


> Which apparently supply 25% of the world's oil.


Sorry, it's about 25% of US production.  Still a sizeable amount though.





> You drive a minimum of 38 miles to/from work?
> 
> Get a bike.


My commute's 38 miles and it used to be awesome on a bike, especially because you can lane split in California...Until my wife made me sell it when our baby was born...

But you guys not from the US are right, we've enjoyed gas prices that have not risen to match inflation since the embargo of the 70's ended.

I lived in Australia in the late 80's and gas was $0.74/liter, when I was used to paying about $0.65/gallon in Texas.  I was really thankful that I didn't own a car when I was down there, just borrowed a mate's ute or the company truck if I needed to go to town.

Are OPEC and producers taking "advantage" of the situation, sure.  I.E. why is Diesel more expensive in the US when it's bottom of the totem pole in the cracking process, and gasoline is at the top?  Mile-for-mile, the US industries that need diesel, use more of it than the average consumer uses gas.  Go figger that equation.  

Are water companies taking advantage of the situation, absolutely!  I just read an article regarding San Diego municipal water, that it's some of the best in the US and comparable to bottled waters (whatever method involved), but San Diegans spend millions on it annually.  Although a good % of that water consumption is driven by aliens (illegal or not), who don't believe that tap water is safe (so they go to the 7-11 and plunk in a buck to fill gallon milk jugs from the "filtered" water machine outside), not noticing the garden hose from the store going to the back of it...   P.T. Barnum would love it!  I'm on a well and my water tests show that it's beter than most bottled, so I'm sticking with it, but my wife drinks bottled...AAARGH!

The company I work for is, well "frugal" (if you're in CA, you can figure out where I work, and we live up to our name internally), but our Execs and Conference room get bottled water.  I fill up my water bottles at the filtered tap in the Conference Room sink and keep 'em in my fridge.  But you shouldn't drink water anyway...Fish **** in it.  

As for Starbucks, the water guy brings that for them too, which for about $3 a bag, I get from my secretary and take home, so my coffee costs about $3 every 2 months...I laugh at my Boss when we go to Starbucks (him every day..me only if he's buying) and he drops $5+ for a "Vente Cafe Americana, add shot, yada, yada, yada".  They get to me and it's easy: "Large coffe with a shot", which can really PI$$ those foks off when you don't use their terms, but I refuse!

Smitty


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## Andrew Fergus (Sep 1, 2005)

FYI oil statistics for 2004 - who produced it, who consumed it, who imported it and who exported it.  Once the oil is gone future wars will be over water (of the unpolluted variety) - where I live we have chlorine-free spring water on tap!  No need to buy it here but plenty of people do ...


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## litrelord (Sep 1, 2005)

> FYI oil statistics for 2004 - who produced it, who consumed it, who imported it and who exported it.



Unfortunately these figures don't mean much without comparing them to the population figures from each country.  It's fine to say that a country consumes the most oil but if they've twice as many people than the country in second place and the second place country uses more than 50% of their total then they're worse offenders.

Still, 20.5 million barrels of oil per day is pretty outstanding   

Nick


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## just_jon (Sep 1, 2005)

Yes, we here in the US have had an easy time of it, no doubt. Coming to an end, I think.

I can remember heading down to Ormond Beach in the late 50's/early 60's and running into gas wars in south Georgia: 10.9 cents/gallon.

Those were the days, eh boys?

Anyway, the price of gas is at the moment trivial. There are I'd guess near 5,000 dead and more dying in the Gulf now.

Those of you who can, send what you can [ as T.T. Terry used to say, "Great is the Power of Cash." ]


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## Andrew Fergus (Sep 1, 2005)

litrelord said:
			
		

> Unfortunately these figures don't mean much without comparing them to the population figures from each country.



Consider the per capita usage of Nauru (look it up, you will be surprised) and those sorts of numbers can be meaningless.  However, to put the absolute oil consumption figures into perspective, the US consumed more oil in 2004 than China, Japan, Russia, Germany and India combined - the next 5 highest consumers of oil.

What does this mean on a per capita basis?

Ths US has an estimated population of 296m versus the other countries I posted of 1.3b, 127m, 143m, 82m & 1.08b for a combined total of over 2,600 million people.

Andrew 

{Just sticking to the facts, no opinions given nor politics mentioned}


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## PaddyD (Sep 2, 2005)

"Coming to an end, I think"

Wrong tense, for some bits of the US.


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## Smitty (Sep 2, 2005)

How about a tone break:

Jon, you OK?  

Campbell's monthly College Fund went to the http://www.redcross.org/

Take care,

Smitty

(If you watching didn't know, jon lives in Alabama and probably had his hands full keeping his kin safe, much less posting).

I'll take up the Economic/Usage/Contribution issues later.   :wink:


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## just_jon (Sep 2, 2005)

Doing fine, Smitty, thanks.

We were without power a while, and water in the basement, but hey! so what.

Far enough north and, this time, far enough east.

The carnage along the Gulf is tsunami-like, covering a smaller area and fewer people but so very similar. 

Cannot imagine having to live through anything like that.

Haven't been to N.O. in ~35 years, but I know a few of the places I've seen on tv and if they had not told me where they were, I'd have had no clue.

A woman who grew up across the street has been there for almost 20 years now; married an ex-Saints linebacker, both are lawyers. They rode it out in Baton Rouge. Their home is probably gone.


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## shades (Sep 2, 2005)

I noted on another board that last night many of the people still in New Orleans aren't aware that NO is basically gone - no electicity, no phones, no means to know what everyone else around the world knows. They were hoping to return to their homes by Monday! 

The magnitude of the problem will only increase as disease spreads, and water/food shortages get more critical. And it will be weeks before the water can be drained out, and then it isn't guaranteed that it will be inhabitable.


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## Smitty (Sep 2, 2005)

Glad to hear your OK, Jon!

Rich, yeah, it's pretty sad.  But the good side is all of the people outside of it who are pitching in to help.  A local radio station here raised over $250,000 in a few hours yesterday afternoon.  Hopefully that's just the beginning.

But I saw something on CNN.com this morning that's sure to spark more cries of racism: about 6 white guys with M-16's on an armored SWAT vehicle swarmed by pointing residents, who they were there to try to protect.

Rescuers have just as hard a time getting in to folks as those folks have getting out and to help.

Unfortunately, New Orleans is a write-off now, not that it wasn't headed in that direction anyway.

Smitty


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## shades (Sep 2, 2005)

From Dr. Sanjay Gupta:



> Charity is one of the largest hospitals in Louisiana. It is surrounded by six to eight feet of water. The only way you can get here is by boat or amphibious vehicle. We took a boat here yesterday.
> 
> I was told that *someone was shooting at doctors and patients* as they were trying to get out of this place to other hospitals where they can get better care. This is the most mind boggling thing I have heard.



Idiocy to the extreme!


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## Smitty (Sep 2, 2005)

It's ridiculous.

What a **** shame that a few scumbags can FUBAR it for everyone else.

Smitty


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## just_jon (Sep 2, 2005)

Personally, I'm ashamed of our government and my countrymen.

At least so far, the face we've put on this disaster is one of stupifying incompetence and sheer thugery. 

Widescale pillage in the tsunami? Not that I saw or heard.

Disaster planners have known for years this was the outcome of a serious storm in that area. We did not listen, or did not care.

We seem to have prepared with an arrogance bordering on neglect and responded with anger, getting nowhere fast in the process.

Just pathetic.


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## shades (Sep 2, 2005)

I think frustration and anger are inevitable in such circusmtances. But what could I do - in reality? I can't get in a car and drive to NO to help. I would be someone in the way. I can send money to Red Cross, which is very good (and our family is doing that). But that doesn't translate into water bottles today in NO, Biloxi, Gulfport, or anywhere else.

And I am not a government apologist, but sometimes even with the best of planning, some things cannot be done immediately. Reminds me of a VP recently who wanted something done. I told him that it couldn't be done in the time period set. Even if we had all the programmers/database experts in the world available, it wouldn't change the time needed for the specific task. Should the Corps of Engineers been better prepared? Sure. Could some things have been down differently? Yep. But once the disaster hits, there is another reality that intrudes - and it isn't a "government problem" it has to do with the physical realities of distance, capabilities, etc. Yes, buses are needed. But to get buses there requires support, and even if they could get through, who would insure that they could get gas once they made it through? And many of the people need water worse than getting out of the immediate circumstances.

So, I have heard comments like "Well, we can airlift water/food to Iraq but we can't do it here for our own people!" The reality is that the mechanism to supply water/food to Iraq took a long time to establish it. It didn't happen in a week, and the amount of water/food aid given in Iraq is insignificant compared to what is needed in this disaster. And it isn't just NO that needs the immediate help. There are several towns of 5,000-10,000 people who have no town, no access to any kind of relief, no access to major highways. So they tend to be forgotten along with Gulport, Biloxi, etc. because of the attention on NO. 

And the death toll continues, which deepens the sadness of the disaster. There are no easy answers, and that is frustrating...


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## shades (Sep 6, 2005)

I posted this another board, and think it is approproate to remember when some (outside the disaster area) who have complained about why it took so long for relief to come.
===============================

Having served in the military for several years, I might add a little perspective on this. The amount of disaster relief flown by the US "in far flung places" is not even a day's worth of relief necessary in this disaster. 

This is the largest airborne lift in history. Consider just the issue of helicopters. How many does it take to move people out? Hmmmm, let's send a hundred helicopters. Okay, most of them are Blackhawk's which might carry 10-12 people. So, now how far do the helicopters have to fly to get to the region? And where will they land? And what ground crew will accompany them? And where will there re-fuel? Yes, air-to-air allows a little flexibility. But fly a helicopter 8 hours, with one refueling already, and how many more can you do? And what about maintenance on these helicopters? They are not like cars or pickups - they require routine maintenance, or you will have dead bodies scattered around.

Now, suppose they could carry water/food in on each return flight into the area. Where does the food come from? How much was available within helicopter flying distance of the disaster area? How much food was packaged so that it would be usable when delivered? 

What about flight control? Who coordinates this? I remember in the Navy a flight operations for 30-40 aircraft was a major accomplishment for 6-8 hours of combat. And there was no interference from other flyers. What about Coast Guard, NG, Navy, Air Force?

And the longer it goes, the more urgent medical needs survivors need to be transported elsewhere.

Oh, yeah, and then snipers enter the picture? Shooting at doctors, military, police, civilians?

And some want all this rescue effort accomplished for 700,000+ people [remember NO is only one city affected, granted the largest, but what about Biloxi, Gulfport, and all the smaller towns in the region] in 24-48 hours? Obviously, some of these complainers have never packed food/clothing for more than a rainy weekend at the fairgrounds.


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## shades (Sep 6, 2005)

This from an April 2005 issue:

Popular Science

==================

It takes Scott Kiser only a split second to name the one city in the U.S., and probably the world, that would sustain the most catastrophic damage from a category-5 hurricane. "New Orleans," says Kiser, a tropical-cyclone program manager for the National Weather Service. "Because the city is below sea level—with the Mississippi River on one side and Lake Pontchartrain on the other—it is a hydrologic nightmare." The worst problem, he explains, would be a storm surge, a phenomenon in which high winds stack up huge waves along a hurricane’s leading edge. In New Orleans, a big enough surge would quickly drown the entire city.

.....

New Orleans has nearly completed its Hurricane Protection Project, a $740-million plan led by Naomi to ring the city with levees that could shield residents from up to category-3 storm surges. Meanwhile, Winer and others at the Army Corps are considering a new levee system capable of holding back a surge from a category-5 hurricane like Ivan, which threatened the city last year. 

To determine exactly where and how high to build these levees, the engineers have enlisted the aid of a 3-D computer-simulation program called ADCIRC (Advanced Circulation Model). ADCIRC incorporates dozens of data points—including seabed and coastal topography, wind speed, tidal variation, ocean depth and water temperature—and charts a precise map of where the storm surge would inundate New Orleans. *The category-5 levee idea, though, is still in the early planning stages; it may be decades before the new barriers are completed.* Until then, locals had better keep praying to Helios. 

=========================


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## Andrew Fergus (Sep 6, 2005)

And this from the National Geographic in October 2004 :



> As the whirling maelstrom approached the coast, more than a million people evacuated to higher ground. Some 200,000 remained, however—the car-less, the homeless, the aged and infirm, and those die-hard New Orleanians who look for any excuse to throw a party.
> 
> The storm hit Breton Sound with the fury of a nuclear warhead, pushing a deadly storm surge into Lake Pontchartrain. The water crept to the top of the massive berm that holds back the lake and then spilled over. Nearly 80 percent of New Orleans lies below sea level—more than eight feet below in places—so the water poured in. A liquid brown wall washed over the brick ranch homes of Gentilly, over the clapboard houses of the Ninth Ward, over the white-columned porches of the Garden District, until it raced through the bars and strip joints on Bourbon Street like the pale rider of the Apocalypse. As it reached 25 feet (eight meters) over parts of the city, people climbed onto roofs to escape it.
> 
> ...


A


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