# A moment of frustration...



## Oorang (Jan 22, 2007)

Is it just me, or does it seem like a lot of posts are less questions on how to do things and more like development requests?


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## giacomo (Jan 22, 2007)

I just wanted to comment on the fact that your last two topics rhyme and that you have a nice little haiku started:


> Big O Notation
> A moment of frustration...



I'm waiting on the edge of my seat for the third line!

seriously though, this place is a great resource and you really can't blame people for trying to get something for nothing. I think in the Access forum most of the "experts" are good about asking the OP to break down the request into a specific issue needing to be resolved. Maybe that doesn't happen as often on the Excel side (it's been a while since I've looked). 

Giacomo


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## Oorang (Jan 22, 2007)

Big O Notation 
A moment of frustration...
O Exclamation?


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## mikerickson (Jan 22, 2007)

I'm new to the board, but I have already notice that if an OP has a problem, many are unsatisfied with "Oh, you need the MATCH function"; they want (and many of us show-offs are eager to supply) the exact keystrokes to meet their need. 

The seems to be less interest in "learning to progam a spreadsheet" than in "solving this problem, I don't care why the solution works" .

Not all posters, but enough that that is my initial impression of this site.


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## Greg Truby (Jan 22, 2007)

Aaron,

This theme comes up periodically (maybe Jon P. could create us a nice chart of its frequency .) 

Regardless of the amount of input from the various camps: it more or less usually boils down to "if you feel someone is asking for handouts of fish when he has not even tried casting a line himself just move along and let the post sink."  Put another way: "let someone who feels like spoonfeeding the infants do so."


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## erik.van.geit (Jan 23, 2007)

Hi,

Do a search for "spoonfeeding": you'll find more threads about this subject   
We are part of a community and do not share the same principles all the time. We have to live with that.

rather frequently we can see this kinda threads
OP: 10:00 AM "how would I ..."
teacher: 10:05 AM "take a look at ..."
spoonfeeder: 10:45 AM "this is your solution"
when you're the teacher, you could think: "why doesn't this spoonfeeder see I want to teach the OP to fish?"
when you're the spoonfeeder, you could think: "why doesn't this teacher see that the OP is never going to make it by himself?"

seen from viewpoint of "postcount-members":
teacher: "hmm, if I do this step by step, I can add 4 or 5 easily to my postcount"
spoonfeeder: "this is an easy one from my library: let's throw it in there, makes me a quick +1 or perhaps +2"

seen from viewpoint of "searching-members":
about teacher: "so complicated to get to my goal" or "interesting additional information"
about spoonfeeder: "this doesn't learn me anything about the background" or "nice and easy resource"

to be clear: I didn't tell I couldn't be one of those from time to time    

different view-points: let's live together in peace  

greetings from Belgium,
Erik


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## litrelord (Jan 23, 2007)

Depends how much has been asked for. It's unlikely that a whole project is going to be solved but sometimes you can have quite a large request that someone completely solves for the OP and I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. 

I've read posts that give full sections of code or a complete formula which answers the question without any more questions being answered. If I then use that I'll look through it and try and understand why it works. 

If you're the kind of person who just wants the answer and doesn't care about the how or why that's also fine but you're less likely to get help in the first instance and less likely to be able to adapt it for your own use.

Nick


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## Oorang (Jan 24, 2007)

Yah you're probably right. Moment over  I just read about 12 of these in a row right before I posted: "My boss asked me to put together a program that downloads 12 websites, parses the text to flat file format, loads it into access for warehousing, sends it to excel for summary reports and analytics and then posts it to our company website in flash. How do I do that?" 
And I just wanted to type "You call a consulting firm..." But I started in whinging in this thread instead


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## Greg Truby (Jan 24, 2007)

> ... I just read about 12 of these in a row right before I posted: "My boss asked me to put together a program that downloads 12 websites, parses the text to flat file format, loads it into access for warehousing, sends it to excel for summary reports and analytics and then posts it to our company website in flash. How do I do that?" ...
> -oorang



I had also noticed what I perceived to be an uptick in posts of this type.  If I respond at all, it's usually just with a link to http://www.mrexcel.com/consult.shtml  But I always find myself wondering what nit-witted boss would delegate such a complex task to someone that obviously does not have the skill set needed.  Is it a small company where they just don't have the man-power?  Or is the boss just this clueless?


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## levipe (Jan 24, 2007)

I probably fall more on the spoonfeeder side, if anything, but I don't feel horribly about it. Most generally, I assume that there are two types of people posting: ones than want to learn and ones that don't. If they want to learn and I pop and equation out there that they need, then they'll probably go through it and figure out why it works and what they did before didn't. If they don't want to learn, then they just use the equation with nary another thought about it. 
Alternatively, if I try to teach someone who wants to learn, then that works out similarly to how it might have worked out if I just gave the answer. If I try to teach someone who doesn't want to learn, I'm really just wasting my time. 
The ones that really get under my skin are the ones that finish up with: "CONSIDER THIS URGENT/TOP PRIORITY AND GET BACK TO ME AT LAZY@CONFUSEDABOUTWHATTHISBOARDREALLYIS.NET"
Does anyone really think that putting something in all caps is really going to move it to the top of my priority list, above breathing, eating, and my own work?


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## TinaP (Jan 24, 2007)

I don't mind the spoonfeeding requests as much as the "Will you do my homework for me?" requests.  Every now and then I see one and I hope it sinks without a response, which it rarely does.


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## Greg Truby (Jan 24, 2007)

> I don't mind the spoonfeeding requests as much as the "Will you do my homework for me?" requests...
> -TinaP



I find them troublesome too, but for a different reason... *temptation*  I am always tempted to post erroneous advice  And there is a direct correlation between the urgency of the poster and the level of my temptation.  If they sound really desparate (or better yet they're actually in the middle of taking a "certification" test - yes, it's happened) I just have to repeat under my breath "don't sully the board's reputation...don't sully the board's reputation..." and mouse away.


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## steve case (Jan 26, 2007)

litrelord wrote, "If you're the kind of person who just wants the answer and doesn't care about the how or why that's also fine but you're less likely to get help in the first instance and less likely to be able to adapt it for your own use. "

I sometimes get answers here that I think of as "Flux Capacitors".   Dr. Brown in _Back to the Future_ didn't know how it worked, and neither do I, but I do save them, and they come in quite handy.  

I mostly want results, and I don't have a VBA education, so what I can't figure out on my own, I come here to the well and beg for answers.  

I am very thankful for the answers I get.  The people that use my "Toys" think I'm a guru.  Little do they know.


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## Island Vince (Jan 26, 2007)

God bless this board.
I recently visited another and decided to register. Boy! talk about getting read the riot act! "Don't do this - nor this - nor this! Don't waste our time or we'll de-list you, etc., etc. I'm sure that there are those that would test the patience of Job, but I have always been treated with respect by all of you and I suspect that your gracious behaviour, (en toto), has a lot to do with why this is the number one board in the world of Excel. I am not at the stage, (yet), of being able to offer advice, but when I get there, I will remember that it was once I who needed frequent help, (and always received it in multiples), and as such, I will endeavour to pay back my debt. 
With great respect,
Vince


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## Cbrine (Jan 29, 2007)

I usually categorize these types of posts.

Category 1.
  If is easy, I will whip up a quick solution for the OP.

Category 2.
  Challenging or Interesting.  Maybe something I've always want to try, and have never really need at my job.  'course eventually it seems to come in handy.

If it's something difficult that I've done before, I will usually give it a pass, or maybe point them in the right direction instead of giving them a solution.  One of the main reason's I do this is to increase my own skills when nothing much is going on at work.

Cal


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## SydneyGeek (Jan 30, 2007)

What I really like about this site is that, if you want to learn, there are plenty of gurus to get you going. I remember being blown away by the answers to my first post. It was a (tricky for me) formula. In 5 minutes, I had 3 different answers. I was hooked. Now, it's great to be able to help others but I still throw in the occasional Q myself. 

Personally, I'm happy to put in the effort for someone who genuinely seems to be trying to figure it out. Sometimes I'll give the spoonfeed, sometimes it's a nudge or two to get the OP to rethink their strategy. Sometimes they started by asking the wrong question. 



> Category 2.
> Challenging or Interesting


Sometimes the best way to learn is to stretch yourself, trying to answer something new. 

Regardless, those who grab answers, put them on place and pop up later asking the same question, get put onto my mental "ignore" list. 

Denis


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## Oorang (Jan 30, 2007)

> What I really like about this site is that, if you want to learn, there are plenty of gurus to get you going.


 That's very true. This site took me from knowing the basic formulas into advanced VBA thanks to the people who gave their time to me. That's why I still hang around and help where I can. I feel like I should pay a little back.


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## killerleaf (Feb 16, 2007)

Everyone here has been gracious beyond all belief--even when I have been ignorant beyond words.  There have been times when I have felt that I don't have the correct vocabulary to express what I need, and everyone has been kind and helpful, until I could communicate clearly.  This is the best place ever!


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## Lewiy (Feb 17, 2007)

Perhaps the most frustrating are questions which make absolutely no sense, the OP clearly has no comprehension of how to explain the problem he/she has or even what they expect to achieve.  How do they ever expect to get an answer which they will really understand?

Perhaps the solution is to respond with an equally useless statement and get them off the unanswered posts list!

Personally I find I learn more by trying to help people, even if it's something I already know, it can reinforce the methods in my brain of something I don't use very often.


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## markvejraskagirl (Mar 30, 2007)

*Real Problem*

I think the reason that most people don't post real problems on here is that no one ever answer them.  I posted one a couple of days ago on the Technical Issues.....but no one helps.

My problem is that I can longer create charts in my Excel 2007.  It worked fine last week and now won't do anything.  I am an Accounting student and REALLY NEED TO GET MY ASSIGNMENT DONE!!!

I have tried Microsoft help but I can' afford $49.95 for someone to help me.  I thought they had great support before, but the new one is a real joke......

Amy


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## Lewiy (Mar 30, 2007)

Often, "real" solutions can be extremely complicated and difficult for anyone to understand who doesn't use the data or project in question.

When I post a question I try to identify an individual part of the problem with which I'm having trouble and create a "simple" example of this (being careful not to over simplify resulting in an answer which doesn't really help when put in context).  Generally a little thought towards your own problem first will help in the long run because no-one wants to read through a huge post trying to work out what the OP really wants.


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## SydneyGeek (Mar 31, 2007)

> Generally a little thought towards your own problem first will help in the long run because no-one wants to read through a huge post trying to work out what the OP really wants



Also, thinking about the question before you post it can actually help you solve it yourself -- or get somewhere along the way  :wink: 

Denis


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## Smitty (Mar 31, 2007)

*Re: Real Problem*



> I think the reason that most people don't post real problems on here is that no one ever answer them.  I posted one a couple of days ago on the Technical Issues.....but no one helps.
> 
> My problem is that I can longer create charts in my Excel 2007.  It worked fine last week and now won't do anything.  I am an Accounting student and REALLY NEED TO GET MY ASSIGNMENT DONE!!!
> 
> ...



Welcome to the Board!

This is a joke right?  Have you followed this thread at all?  Unfortunately, based on your post count, I think not.

Regardless , there's not much sense in bitching about a post to which no one responded without posting a link to said post so we can take a look.

I will take a look for it and if it's warranted, move it to the Excel Questions forum, where it'll have just a wee bit more readership. 

In the meantime, you might want to reread this post and rethink this:



> I am an Accounting student and REALLY NEED TO GET MY ASSIGNMENT DONE!!!



Smitty

EDIT: Your post has been moved to Excel Questions.


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## Marbles (Mar 31, 2007)

What we all should remember, is that, nobody should expect to be judged by what they ask.  This site especially, lets people ask any question, and answer any question.  There isn't, and shouldn't be any snobbery, if your question isn't answered, then try somewhere else, but if it is answered, it's usually either correct or corrected by someone else.  And it's all the better for letting everyone choose for themselves.


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## ExcelChampion (Mar 31, 2007)

People _answering _posts are at different stages as well...

1. Those that are learning by "doing" and thus apply knowledge they recently learned and end up posting a solution

2. Those that know the solution already and try to guide the OP.

3. Those that know the solution already and give the solution.

Coupled with OPs that either want to learn by asking or OPs that just want a solution, we end up with several different combinations.

For myself, when I was learning, I would post solutions to questions and then Aladin or Yogi Anand or just_jon, or Tusharm, etc would come in and post a different approach at which point I would ask what the difference was.  It was a great way for me and the OP to learn, if the OP wanted to learn.

As well, I suppose I am one that gives the solution and if the OP wants to learn then I will oblige.  I see nothing wrong with that.  It is not up to me to try to teach someone that doesn't want to learn.  I would rather them decide what is best for them and then ask for the lesson if that is what they want.


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## Marbles (Mar 31, 2007)

If you ask an open question, you'll usually get an open answer.  If you restrict the question, you might miss the answer that someone never thought of.


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## Oorang (Apr 2, 2007)

You know perhaps some this frustration could be alleviated if there was a community agreed upon standard for what constitutes a "good" question, and in turn what constititutes a good answer.

In the word's of OakTree's Signature :wink: 



> "The greatest challenge to any thinker is stating the problem in a way that will allow a solution." Bertrand Russell


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## Peter_SSs (Apr 3, 2007)

My thought on this is that Erik got it just about right on page 1 of the thread.

To me one of the great features of this forum is that those users that do get peeved at meaningless OP questions or spoonfeeding responders or OPs who expect too much (and want it NOW!!) etc generally just mutter under their breath and move on. The tone of the board is generally helpful, generous, forgiving, non-judgmental, ...

I guess I am pretty much in the spoonfeeder category (though I don't always have the right medicine in the spoon and a few    are required). My feeling is that if somebody posts a question and doesn't want the answer, they could easily say; "Here is my question. Please do *not* answer it - just nudge me in the right direction" and I would be happy to oblige.

Although most of my posts have been answering questions rather than asking them, I am largely using the board as a learning tool for myself. By getting in and trying to answer questions I think that I have learned far more than if I had been asking them all the time. After all "How do you know what you don't know?" Other people's questions soon highlight things you don't know and give you a new learning starting point. As has already been pointed out in this thread, if you do suggest a wrong or inefficient approach, somebody else soon puts you straight - generally in a polite and friendly manner.

I guess that I have now made this post into one of those that often get skipped over because they are too long. Oh well, too bad! Let's hope this board stays such a friendly and helpful place.


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## DonkeyOte (Jul 26, 2008)

I have to say I just stumbled on this thread looking for something else and found it very interesting... especially given the people on the post... a lot of whom are big time contributors to the site.  I appreciate it's not been added to for some time but figured I would post anyway... I'm like that.  I answered a post about a 10-pin bowling template the other day only to discover that it was posted originally in 2004 or something 

I like this site a lot and the whole issue of whether OPs are investigative by nature is an interesting one... I often wonder how many really "unique" questions are asked on Mr E and how many are in truth really just minor variations to a question that's been asked here a thousand and one times before...

I suspect that if a guest/member was *really* (heavily) interested in learning the nuances of Excel for themselves and in so doing solving their own problem they could probably find something amidst the multitide of posts on this site that once broken down would allow them to adjust to suit their own needs.  However, as time goes on I believe this gets more difficult because IMO Mr.E is a victim of it's own success as I think the real issue comes down to how easy/difficult it is to search the 1.5m posts and find something that is along the same lines of your requirement.  The site is SO good and successful that you would have to either a) be very clever in your search criteria and/or b) have time to go through all of the posts returned...  given a lot of the posts are slight variations of each other it's likely that their search method would return a LOT of results... perhaps they look at them all and think -- "jeez, I'd be better off just posting my own specifics in a new question as I don't have time to go through these..."

Let's be clear, I'm not knocking the search engine here I'm merely saying there are normally too many variables in the OPs scenario for them to find something they deem similar or the opposite, their search is too generic... without the expert knowledge it's difficult for them to ascertain as to whether or not an old post is really giving them what they need.

Fundamental point I guess is that for 95% of the time the questions are posted by people at work and most people (in my experience) by nature aren't inclined to spend hours trying to solve something they feel they can get someone else to solve in minutes.

The posts I avoid are those along the lines of:

"I got this formula from someone here a while back but I need to change it to now do this, can someone please change it ? "

This to me is where I (as someone keen to learn in general) get frustrated...  the attitude of not wanting to know how something works I find difficult to grasp... ie how on earth are you comfortable using something in your job that you don't yourself understand ?  The mind boggles.

In summation, this site is awesome... I am very much a contributor of the answer variety but I do ask the odd question... however just by answering questions I have in the past week been blown away by contributions from pgc01, oaktree, fazza and mikerickson to name but three... and THAT is why I love this place... That and the fact I know I am not able to generate a solution to every question posted here as I simply don't know enough... I suspect I never will.


Incidentally - I WAS looking for:

"what does Ingore List feature" do ?  Presumably just PMs...


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## Domski (Jul 27, 2008)

> "what does Ingore List feature" do ?


 
No wonder you didn't find it


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## Peter_SSs (Jul 27, 2008)

lasw10 said:


> ... contributions from pgc01, oaktree, fazza and mikerickson to name but *three*...


Must have been late at night when that was written.


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## DonkeyOte (Jul 28, 2008)

Ha yes I re-read it yesterday and noted the error.... I actually added Fazza last minute but forgot to alter three to four... doh.


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## Jonmo1 (Jul 28, 2008)

Greetings.

I would say I fall somewhere between the teacher and the spoonfeeder.  It really depends on the "mood" in which the question was asked.  If the question was well thought out and detailed, my answer will be well thought out and detailed.  If the question was blunt and to the point, so will my anwser..

The question that frustrates me the most is the "dummed down" question

How do you do .....

you answer...

OK, wait, now what if...How would I do it then ?


So I say, ask your ACTUAL question up front, don't try to dumb it down..


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## Oorang (Jul 28, 2008)

Wow, resurrected after all this time  With another year and half of experience I would say the best advice I got on this matter came from Greg "Let 'em sink" Truby  

There are many many people who will ask for help, you will give it, and they will learn and build on what they learned. (Yay those people). And then there are those who will not learn, and just want someone to do the work for them. And trying to help 1 of the later will take up 10 times as much time as 1 of the former. If you think a poster is not looking for help, but looking for free labor, just pass it on by.


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## Greg Truby (Jul 28, 2008)

Aaron,

Wow, I must have seen too many "do my homework" posts that week! That and as I recall, we had recently had a thread or two already discussing the topic. Looking back I think perhaps I should rephrase my response to read "help as much as you want".

If you are the kind of person that typically wants to learn how things work so that you don't have to come, hat-in-hand every time you need the smallest of edits to a formula or code, then you will not have a great deal of patience with people who want you to work harder at solving their problems than they themselves are willing to work. You will probably be doing yourself and the OP a favor if you just skip their thread. Normally I offer to serve as a guide. If the person takes me up on it, I try to illuminate the way. If they just want a hand-out then...

...I may not let all the lazy-bones sink. If their problem is of great enough interest that I find the challenge/learning experience worthy in its own right then I may go ahead and tackle it. There have been occasions when a poster's problem entailed something that I'd been wanting to learn more about, so I would go ahead and spend a lot of time on it. But in that case I am the primary beneficiary and the OP becomes a collateral beneficiary.

And, of course, some folks are just bored and find solving other people's problems is a form of entertainment.


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## Lewiy (Jul 29, 2008)

jonmo1 said:


> <?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o></o>





jonmo1 said:


> The question that frustrates me the most is the "dummed down" question<o></o>
> <o></o>
> How do you do .....<o></o>
> <o></o>
> ...


<o></o>
<o> </o>
I’m pretty sure that some people know EXACTLY what they’re doing when they post these kinds of questions.  Quite recently I got sucked into a post like this.  What started as a pretty simple question gradually escalated, bit by bit, until I found myself completing an entire project for the OP without even realising.  **** my helpful nature!! <o></o>
<o> </o>
On the other hand, at least I knew what I was looking at when we did finally get to the root of the real question.  If they’d have asked it properly in the first place, I doubt I would have responded as it would have sounded too complex and ambiguous to be worth spending my time on.<o></o>
<o> </o>
So I think there’s a time and place for this kind of post.  If it does actually help to achieve an ultimate goal, then it can’t be THAT bad can it? (Or maybe I’m just too nice!!!)<o></o>


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## riaz (Aug 1, 2008)

Just noticed this thread (I try to avoid anything with frustration in it), so here is my tuppence worth.

I joined the forum oh so many moons ago because I stumbled upon it in my search for the solution to a particular problem.  My search on the web did not answer it, nor did my search as a guest on this forum find me what I was looking for, so I registered, posted my question, and I got an answer within two hours, showing me a tool I did not even know existed.

I realised this was a forum that has a vast store of knowledge _and_ brains and stayed on.  

While I do not usually have specific questions to post, I do have specific problems, and I do search the forum to see if my problem has been raised before.  I have found a number of solutions here.  So, a plea from a novice - don't just think of the OP alone when providing a solution, but also of the silent majority like me who lurk a lot and learn just by reading, even though they do not actively contribute.  

I agree that on occasion one does see posts that slowly, step by step, have got their whole project worked out for free, but these are few and far between.  Others I have seen range from the absolute novice to extremely complicated questions returned with extremely complicated solutions, where the OP has not come back with requests for more but just to express thanks.  I am sure a majority of us fall halfway between the two extremes, and we learn just by being here.

I would like to take this opportunity to once again thank all you Excel-lent people.


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## Lewiy (Aug 1, 2008)

I think it would be appropriate at this juncture to say that, if it weren’t for this board, my Excel skills would be significantly less than they are.  There have been many important milestones on my Excel journey, some from before discovering MrExcel (the day I discovered VLOOKUP and began to unleash the power of formulas) and some since joining the board (suddenly realising that this “macro” business was actually useful!!).  My advancement has come from asking the right questions and receiving the right answers…or in some cases the wrong answers!! 
<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-comfficeffice" /><o> </o>
But I think the major factor has been receiving advice and suggestions that have fuelled my desire to learn more.  I have spent many hours trawling through the help files (they are almost my second home) having been prompted by a post/comment here.  Although I could just have used the suggestions given to me, I wanted to understand so that I could apply methods in other situations.

To all that are reading that are just beginning or are in the early stages of their journey, I would urge you to try to really understand solutions that you are given.  Try to ask not for a complete macro/formula but just a solution for the part that you are having trouble with and above all, enjoy using and abusing Excel to it’s fullest!!


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