# how to teach a novice?



## GaryR (Aug 29, 2008)

ok, so my wife knows almost nothing at all about Excel, but she wants to learn so that she can get into a job doing admin or something. she's used it like twice in her whole life. But everytime i try to sit down with her and start with even the basics, she gets frustrated at how much there is to it and how powerful it can get so fast, and i get frustrated because i never really know where to start and how in depth to get with anything with her cause i'm fairly advanced.

who knows a really good book or a really good *free* online class for people that have never used excel before? I tried the microsoft.com tutorials but she got frustrated at how slow they went over the parts that she did know... grrr...


thanks!


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## Kaps_mr2 (Aug 29, 2008)

try Excel for Dummies ?

also ask her what she wants to learn and focus on that.

thanks
Kaps


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 29, 2008)

Gary - I have the same issue with my husband - I'm not a very patient teacher! We did have a partial success with getting him his own MrExcel login so that he could pick some little projects on here and try to work out the solutions - then it wasn't just me doing the teaching. He wasn't especially motivated though, so hasn't done it a lot. Might be worth a try though?

If you do find a good way, please post back, 'cause I'd be interested to know!


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## Fazza (Aug 29, 2008)

Difficult to teach anyone, I reckon, unless they want to learn.

And if someone wants to learn, they will do so without your teaching - in their own sweet way.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 29, 2008)

Come on, Fazza, you've got to admit that having a good teacher around significantly speeds up the process!


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## SydneyGeek (Aug 29, 2008)

The projects approach is a good one. Pick something (better still, get her to pick something) fairly basic but useful, that she would want to use and that can be built in Excel. 

Help her to build it, then encourage her to use it. Hopefully you'll achieve two things: 
1. Give her a sense of having achieved something in Excel
2. Pique her interest to try another project. 

The bottom line, is that you want to make something useful but keep it interesting. Start in her comfort zone, then extend her by showing another formula, or how to filter data to get what she needs, or how to create a chart. 

Possible starting point: A Christmas mailing list that she can use to create a Word merge letter. That could be used to demonstrate data entry, formatting, sorting, filtering. Then move onto something using calculations.

Denis


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## Joe4 (Aug 29, 2008)

Of your three choices, how about none of the above?

If they are a very visual learner (like myself), I would recommend taking a course at a local college (many community colleges offer these), or there are also professional teaching companies that do this (most mid to large sized cities offer these).

Barring those, I would recommend working through a good Step-by-Step intro book.


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## Kaps_mr2 (Aug 29, 2008)

Yes. I think that local colleges would be a good bet. She would realise that she is not alone. Thanks

Kaps


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 29, 2008)

Courses are only good if you learn at the same speed as most of the class - and if the teacher is any good. I was traumatised by several of my CIMA courses - only went to them because I don't have the self-discipline to study at home!


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## Kaps_mr2 (Aug 29, 2008)

at evening classes they tend to be people of the same ability. 

give it a go., you may never know unless you try.

Kaps


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## GaryR (Aug 29, 2008)

ok, so my wife knows almost nothing at all about Excel, but she wants to learn so that she can get into a job doing admin or something. she's used it like twice in her whole life. But everytime i try to sit down with her and start with even the basics, she gets frustrated at how much there is to it and how powerful it can get so fast, and i get frustrated because i never really know where to start and how in depth to get with anything with her cause i'm fairly advanced.

who knows a really good book or a really good *free* online class for people that have never used excel before? I tried the microsoft.com tutorials but she got frustrated at how slow they went over the parts that she did know... grrr...


thanks!


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## Joe4 (Aug 29, 2008)

> Courses are only good if you learn at the same speed as most of the class - and if the teacher is any good


Of course, you can really say that about any teaching method: book and on-line tutorials are only as good as their writers.  So it helps if you can get some recommendations on specific books, teachers, tutorials, etc.

Personally, I have a hard-time learning from books.  I like courses because I can stop the teacherask questions if I don't understand concepts, etc.  To me, there is nothing better than the personal intereaction you can get from a class (something you really can't get from books or tutorials).

Typically, most of the classes I have taken only move as fast as the slowest learner, which can be frustrating at times, but I have never failed to come away learning a whole lot and getting me started down the path I need to go.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 29, 2008)

See, that's why I like learning here - you can go at your own pace, there are real examples, often with worked solutions, and loads of really clever people to ask when you get stuck. Why would I want to pay a couple of hundred quid for a course that won't be nearly as good?


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## Joe4 (Aug 29, 2008)

Emma,

I think that this site is a wonderful place to supplement one's knowledge, provided you have at least some "base" working knowledge of a program like Excel.  But if one is brand spankin' new to Excel, this site will probably be very frustrating to them.  

How would you answer a question like "I am brand new to Excel, how do I use it?" (note that the OP did say that his wife knows practically nothing about Excel).

Its kind of like a Dictionary.  It is great place to look up new words and such, provided you know at least a little of that language.  But if you don't speak any of the langauage, the Dictionary isn't going to be of much help.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 29, 2008)

I've never been on an Excel course, and until a couple of months ago, had never read an Excel book. I learnt how to use it by using it, by understanding my colleague's spreadsheets, and by coming on here.

Most of the basic stuff in Excel just works, stuff like SUM and AVERAGE. You don't need to be taught how to use them. Then it's stuff like VLOOKUP and SUMPRODUCT - and MrExcel is a very good place to learn about them, plenty of people asking questions about them. (Although you might need someone alongside to suggest suitable threads to start with.)

imho


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## Kaps_mr2 (Aug 29, 2008)

I haven't been on an Excel course. However I have a mathematical mind and that helps me with Excel. 

Given that you've done CIMA that also suggests that you've something mathematical about you. May be that's why you find Excel fairly straightforward.

If you've haven't got an mathematical mind then I would guess that Excel is that much harder to learn and a college environment might provide the extra support that is required. Thanks

Kaps


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## Joe4 (Aug 29, 2008)

> If you've haven't got an mathematical mind then I would guess that Excel is that much harder to learn and a college environment might provide the extra support that is required. Thanks


I think you have hit the nail on the head there.  If you have a mathematical or computer background, you can probably pick up the basics of Excel fairly quickly.  And most of the regulars on this site probably fall into that category.  

But, what about the other demographic of population, those who have little mathematical or computer background (and are often times intimidated by computers & computer programs)?  That is where I think the courses can really help.  Of course, they can help use computer guys too!  I still take them, just much more advanced classes now.


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## cornflakegirl (Aug 29, 2008)

Yeah, that's true. I tend to forget that maths isn't obvious to everyone  Even when one of the people it isn't obvious to is my husband. Must remember to go gentle with him!


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## Kaps_mr2 (Aug 29, 2008)

Yes - my VBA is based around the BASIC that I learnt at school 25 years ago !!!


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## Kaps_mr2 (Aug 29, 2008)

but I also think that the real bright stars have a creative mind that enables problem solving.


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## Joe4 (Aug 29, 2008)

> Yeah, that's true. I tend to forget that maths isn't obvious to everyone  Even when one of the people it isn't obvious to is my husband. Must remember to go gentle with him!


Sounds just like my wife.  They say opposites attract, right?


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## GaryR (Aug 29, 2008)

ok, so my wife knows almost nothing at all about Excel, but she wants to learn so that she can get into a job doing admin or something. she's used it like twice in her whole life. But everytime i try to sit down with her and start with even the basics, she gets frustrated at how much there is to it and how powerful it can get so fast, and i get frustrated because i never really know where to start and how in depth to get with anything with her cause i'm fairly advanced.

who knows a really good book or a really good *free* online class for people that have never used excel before? I tried the microsoft.com tutorials but she got frustrated at how slow they went over the parts that she did know... grrr...


thanks!


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## robind21283 (Aug 31, 2008)

I personally can't stand classroom style computer courses, for the reason that they only go as fast as the slowest learner, and I was definitely at the other end of that spectrum.  What I have found useful for me, is my local community college offers on-line courses that last 12 weeks.  They cost about $100 (I know you were looking for free), but you do examples as you go that are related to the real world and how they might be useful, which is helpful for me to remember them.  Two lessons are released a week, and if you have problems completing them or have any questions, there is a discussion board where the teacher will respond and help you, as well as other classmates.  

It all depends on her learning style, but I think either type of classroom is the best (online or in person).


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## Tahas (Sep 12, 2008)

GaryR said:


> ok, so my wife knows almost nothing at all about Excel, but she wants to learn so that she can get into a job doing admin or something. she's used it like twice in her whole life. But everytime i try to sit down with her and start with even the basics, she gets frustrated at how much there is to it and how powerful it can get so fast, and i get frustrated because i never really know where to start and how in depth to get with anything with her cause i'm fairly advanced.
> 
> who knows a really good book or a really good *free* online class for people that have never used excel before? I tried the microsoft.com tutorials but she got frustrated at how slow they went over the parts that she did know... grrr...
> 
> ...


 
Hello there,
I had similar situation helping my friend to learn excel. I used the tactics to increase his curiosity by making Excel doing funny things. I typed his first and last name respectively in column A&B and then put formulas in various columns (starting from beginner to intermediate level) such as len, left, mid, right, find, if and then move to simple spreadsheet with formulas like sum, subtotal, count, counta, ave. v/hlookup……..

Conclusion: He loves excel now and currently working as a senior analyst.
Bottom-line: Do not try to teach with a message that you (your wife) need Excel to Excel in your workplace or to get a job. Just to start with, try her to focus on developing interest and curiosity that how excel can be useful for her simple to complex questions in your mind.

Good luck.

PS: Don’t let my wife know that I told you as I am still not able to teach her…lol


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## GaryR (Sep 12, 2008)

maybe, it's so frustrating! lol.

but i'm not trying to convince her that she needs it, she knows (and is right) that she needs it to get a better job in the market she's looking at. but it's overwhelming.

i've gotten her a book to see if that's easier to follow and then she can come ask me when it doesn't explain stuff clearly enough. maybe that'll be easier. we shall see. i'm hoping she can get to that point where she knows enough to say "i know excel can do this, the question is how." and then maybe knows at least 1 or 2 places to look on her own first and then can ask me or at that point make her a logon here.


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## GaryR (Sep 12, 2008)

like my mom uses excel every day at her job, but she's still a fairly basic user, she calls me constantly at my own job and says "do you have time for me to e-mail you a spreadsheet? how do i do this faster? i've been doing this by hand for 4 hours, can you help me?" lol. so she knows enough to rough it out and knows enough to know excel can do more, if i can get the wife to that point, i think she'll be more interested in learning the finer details.


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## Angelicus (Sep 22, 2008)

having a professional trainer would be the best. IMO any Microsoft Office suit requires teaching by a very good teacher. That's how I learnt, too.


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## Angelicus (Sep 22, 2008)

robind21283 said:


> I personally can't stand classroom style computer courses, for the reason that they only go as fast as the slowest learner, and I was definitely at the other end of that spectrum.



Next time think how bored the trainer is - teaching basic excel when he/she can be happily running macros and doing interesting spreadsheet analysis.

someone need to share the knowledge so more people share the joy!


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## SydneyGeek (Sep 22, 2008)

Angelicus said:


> Next time think how bored the trainer is - teaching basic excel when he/she can be happily running macros and doing interesting spreadsheet analysis.
> 
> someone need to share the knowledge so more people share the joy!



Definitely two sides to this! It is really hard to teach a room of people with a wide spread of ability. But it is possible to teach the slow ones and give the faster ones something to extend themselves. Depends how many resources you have up your sleeve. Personally, I don't use the manual much -- that's for reading. Better to get the users hands-on, then point them to the manual for reference.

Denis


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## Angelicus (Sep 22, 2008)

Hi Denis,

  Cannot agree more - I encourage the fastest users to do as much as possible in the given exercise. If they can't figure it out, they will automatically stop and wait with the rest of the class for answer. There will never be something as "Too slow" in a group class. 

  Your comment was exactly what my boss told me at the 1st day of my training career. (Although i am still a novice in the training industry XD)


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## SydneyGeek (Sep 22, 2008)

How long have you been training? 

I started about 10 years ago, but now I mostly consult. It's a good mix. 

Denis


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## Angelicus (Sep 22, 2008)

6 months  (I'm a novice and I mean it )

My boss had been in the industry for 15 years now. He is the one who goes around Asia doing consultation. I am the one training the entire office suite. 

As a trainer I should find all programs fascinating: I love excel to bits but Words alone cannot express as to how much I detest Microsoft Word


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## GaryR (Aug 29, 2008)

ok, so my wife knows almost nothing at all about Excel, but she wants to learn so that she can get into a job doing admin or something. she's used it like twice in her whole life. But everytime i try to sit down with her and start with even the basics, she gets frustrated at how much there is to it and how powerful it can get so fast, and i get frustrated because i never really know where to start and how in depth to get with anything with her cause i'm fairly advanced.

who knows a really good book or a really good *free* online class for people that have never used excel before? I tried the microsoft.com tutorials but she got frustrated at how slow they went over the parts that she did know... grrr...


thanks!


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## Angelicus (Sep 22, 2008)

I believe everyone is trainable but as a trainer there are two kinds of person who I simply need to let it go - the type who cannot understand English or those who have difficulty typing on the keyboard (eg: they don't even know ABCs)


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## Smitty (Sep 22, 2008)

My wife and I are in a funny position in that she's got a degree in math and my background is decidedly not in math.  I do all of her Excel work for her, because she really doesn't use it enough to need to learn more, even though she is a highly technical PC user.  Her specialty is in web design, which she has a dickens of a time teaching me (so now I'm working on learning ASP, which she doesn't know).

As far as teaching/training goes I generally do all of the Excel heavy lifting in our environment.  My users are not technical and as sales people 95% of them have no need to learn Excel unless they're personally interested, so I build dummy-proof apps for them.  Although we are moving to a remote workforce setup, so I will be putting together some classes for Office apps, now that our reps will be mostly working from home with little to no support.

My boss' biggest complaint about me is that when people come to me for SS help, I tend to just fix it for them instead of showing them how to do it, primarily because the questions are invariably the same.  Need to work on that one I guess.


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## Joe4 (Sep 22, 2008)

> As a trainer I should find all programs fascinating: I love excel to bits but Words alone cannot express as to how much I detest Microsoft Word


I am with you on that one!  As I always say, "Word is the Devil!"


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## RoryA (Sep 22, 2008)

Smitty said:


> My boss' biggest complaint about me is that when people come to me for SS help, I tend to just fix it for them instead of showing them how to do it, primarily because the questions are invariably the same.  Need to work on that one I guess.



I always think that one is very much a question of 'horses for courses' (as my Nan always said). With some people I will take the time because I know they will listen and try and make use of the information (and it will often enable them to help others too, so I get left in peace a bit more often to do my actual work!); with others, I just know their eyes will glaze over the minute I start explaining, so I just fix it and move on.
And if that's your boss' biggest 'complaint' about you, you're probably due a pay rise!!


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## SydneyGeek (Sep 22, 2008)

> My boss' biggest complaint about me is that when people come to me for SS help, I tend to just fix it for them instead of showing them how to do it, primarily because the questions are invariably the same. Need to work on that one I guess.


It's hard to stop, too... if someone interrupts you with a question, it's often faster to just do it. 



> I am with you on that one!  As I always say, "Word is the Devil!"


I use it when I have to. It's a powerful beast, but a beast nonetheless. 



> I believe everyone is trainable but as a trainer there are two kinds of person who I simply need to let it go - the type who cannot understand English or those who have difficulty typing on the keyboard (eg: they don't even know ABCs)


Yep! Once taught 10 people an advanced Access course. 3 had limited keyboard skills, 6 were not too hot on English. We didn't cover all that much. 

Denis


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## Cindy Ellis (Sep 23, 2008)

I'm a bit late to this discussion, but there is a method of learning that I didn't notice specifically mentioned above: learning from reading the online help and examples.  It's not as easy to navigate now (I was doing this almost 20 years ago), but one benefit of learning from help was that I got a sense of how the programmers who wrote Excel thought it might be used.  You can also get a sense for the capabilities of the program, so when you have a problem to solve, you start off thinking that it's possible rather than impossible.
As for the "Word" naysayers ...make it serve you (rather than the other way around) and it will become an essential and valuable tool in your toolbox.  I use a combination of Word and Excel, and use Word macros to manipulate documents almost as often as I use Excel macros.  
Cindy


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## Angelicus (Sep 23, 2008)

Smitty said:


> My wife and I are in a funny position in that she's got a degree in math and my background is decidedly not in math.  I do all of her Excel work for her, because she really doesn't use it enough to need to learn more, even though she is a highly technical PC user.



My guy is a Post-Doctorate in Physics, he has a very competent set of computing skill (higher than me in general), yet when it comes to Microsoft Office suite, he need to give a pass and often refer to me for help. 

However, I hate maths (even though my undergrad degree was in Economics), so for complex maths, I refer him to set up the model then I run it on Excel.


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## Angelicus (Sep 23, 2008)

SydneyGeek said:


> Yep! Once taught 10 people an advanced Access course. 3 had limited keyboard skills, 6 were not too hot on English. We didn't cover all that much.
> 
> Denis



Advance Access course without even keyboard skill? I hope that time you do not need to report to anyone - here in Hong Kong, trainers are under stringent evaluation. I generally discovered that those users who with the most limited fundamental skills tend to give the worst evaluation.


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## Angelicus (Sep 23, 2008)

Cindy Ellis said:


> As for the "Word" naysayers ...make it serve you (rather than the other way around) and it will become an essential and valuable tool in your toolbox.  I use a combination of Word and Excel, and use Word macros to manipulate documents almost as often as I use Excel macros.
> Cindy


I need to learn Excel & Access to increase efficiency, I need to learn Word just to make sure things work out! XD


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## SydneyGeek (Sep 23, 2008)

Angelicus said:


> Advance Access course without even keyboard skill? I hope that time you do not need to report to anyone - here in Hong Kong, trainers are under stringent evaluation. I generally discovered that those users who with the most limited fundamental skills tend to give the worst evaluation.



Same here. This lot had been made redundant so they had been given a training package as part of the severance pay. They could (and did) sit any course they liked over 12 months. There were some real no-hopers.

I always make sure to note in my report, the ones who should not have been there. 

Deniis


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## GaryR (Aug 29, 2008)

ok, so my wife knows almost nothing at all about Excel, but she wants to learn so that she can get into a job doing admin or something. she's used it like twice in her whole life. But everytime i try to sit down with her and start with even the basics, she gets frustrated at how much there is to it and how powerful it can get so fast, and i get frustrated because i never really know where to start and how in depth to get with anything with her cause i'm fairly advanced.

who knows a really good book or a really good *free* online class for people that have never used excel before? I tried the microsoft.com tutorials but she got frustrated at how slow they went over the parts that she did know... grrr...


thanks!


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## Joe4 (Sep 23, 2008)

Like Angelicus, I use Word so infrequently that I just don't have the programming experience with Word that I do with Excel or Access.  So that is probably part of some of the frustration.

But the thing that aggravates me most about Word is how it tends to "think" too much for you (and usually makes bad assumptions in my experience).  I hate when I am typing up an outline and it starts shifting my tab stops all around.  As a programmer, I like programs to do what I tell them, not make guesses as to what it might think I want to do.


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## Angelicus (Sep 23, 2008)

SydneyGeek said:


> Same here. This lot had been made redundant so they had been given a training package as part of the severance pay. They could (and did) sit any course they liked over 12 months. There were some real no-hopers.
> 
> I always make sure to note in my report, the ones who should not have been there.
> 
> Deniis



I once saw a Macro course being taught by colleague to someone who cannot even type properly. Corp Trainer in Hong Kong doesn't have much right to "evaluate" the user in return unless they do cause severe disturbance during course. Inability in fundamental linguistic, computing or even fundamental attitude as a trainee is a non-issue.


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## Cindy Ellis (Sep 23, 2008)

Joe4 said:


> I hate when I am typing up an outline and it starts shifting my tab stops all around.  As a programmer, I like programs to do what I tell them, not make guesses as to what it might think I want to do.



Good point...I didn't mention that I turn off all of the auto-format and "auto-fomat as you type" options...they drive me crazy.


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## Joe4 (Sep 23, 2008)

Cindy,

That is probably the source of most of my frustration.  Where can I find those options?  I looked under Options, but do not see them.  I am using Word 2000.


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## Cindy Ellis (Sep 23, 2008)

It's in Word's Tools - AutoCorrect... menu
There are 4 tabs there, AutoCorrect, AutoFormat, AutoCorrect as you Type, and AutoFormat as you type.  I leave a few things active in AutoCorrect so I can type specific shortcuts for some long phrases (my co's product names with full trademark compliance, etc.), but I've turned off all of the auto-format options under both tabs.
Hope this helps,
Cindy


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## Joe4 (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks Cindy.  That does help.  I turned off most of the features which I know drive me crazy.


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## Smitty (Sep 23, 2008)

Joe4 said:


> Thanks Cindy.  That does help.  I turned off most of the features which I know drive me crazy.



I'll be doing that the next time I have to use Nerd. 

Outlines frustrate the hell out of me!  If I wanted sub heading #2 to be _*ARIAL 14pt Bold Italic*_ I would have done it that way myself!  Especially when everything else is 10 pt!


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## Cindy Ellis (Sep 23, 2008)

(...still talking about Word...)Also check the heading style definitions to make sure they're not set to AutoUpdate.  Use Format - Style - Modify, then uncheck the "AutoUpdate" box if it's checked.  Otherwise, if you apply a style, then make a one-off change, it may back-propagate to all of the paragraphs formatted with that style.
Cindy


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## Smitty (Sep 23, 2008)

Thanks Cindy,

I'll check that out.


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## arkusM (Sep 26, 2008)

I don't have a particular math bent, (in fact I am not a big fan, Lol)
But I love to solve problems, excel give me the ability to solve problems, that happen to coincide with problems that tend to arise at work. 
I once took a course at a local university it was an "advanced" excel course. Many of the folks in the class did not know how to save file to/from a disk....
I will now share the sum total of the knowledge that I gained from that class, ready? ctrl + : enters the current date without a formula... Needless to say I was disappointed. This place has excelled    my knowledge exponentially. Of course that does not help a newbie.

I found I did not have any desire to learn excel until I had a problem to solve with it. Going back to the OP, maybe your student needs a problem to solve to get into it. The thrill of success is addictive. 

Oh oh, my two bits just ran out.


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## GaryR (Aug 29, 2008)

ok, so my wife knows almost nothing at all about Excel, but she wants to learn so that she can get into a job doing admin or something. she's used it like twice in her whole life. But everytime i try to sit down with her and start with even the basics, she gets frustrated at how much there is to it and how powerful it can get so fast, and i get frustrated because i never really know where to start and how in depth to get with anything with her cause i'm fairly advanced.

who knows a really good book or a really good *free* online class for people that have never used excel before? I tried the microsoft.com tutorials but she got frustrated at how slow they went over the parts that she did know... grrr...


thanks!


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## mordrid (Sep 26, 2008)

My wife started using excel only when she had a project which needed it. Now although not an advanced user she gets by and makes spreadsheets work for her (not the most efficient) but logical for her!!!!

Best way to learn have a project and someone on hand with patience to 'guide and not do' this way you learn whilst doing something you need. If you don't have a project think one up such as keeping track of spending, food used inc qty, price etc, CD or book collection....


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