# Lest we forget....



## arkusM (Nov 11, 2010)

In honour of all who fought and those who died. I will not forget.


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## WaterGypsy (Nov 11, 2010)

Well said


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## justme (Nov 11, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=KTb6qdPu8JE

worth viewing.


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## arkusM (Nov 11, 2010)

justme said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=KTb6qdPu8JE
> 
> worth viewing.


 

wow.


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## yytsunamiyy (Nov 11, 2010)

My 0.02:
As a German I simply don't get the American (and British) hero-worship of veterans. Here we do have a national day of mourning - for ALL the victims of war, be they military or civilian, German, American, british or of any other nationality. It's called Volkstrauertag. 
Any person who is killed or wounded in any armed conflict is one person to much. Who ever causes the wounding or death of another human is not someone to be worshipped, but someone to be despised.


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## Joe4 (Nov 11, 2010)

Let's be careful not to turn this into a political debate.  The first version of the Lounge was actually closed down some years ago because of some rather heated discussions like this that got out of hand.

If we see any of that starting to happen here, we will remove this thread from the Public Forums.


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## RobMatthews (Nov 11, 2010)

You might be getting a slightly incorrect view of the British/American veteran treatment. 

As an Aussie, we respect those who serve to protect the sovereignty of our country primarily, and the freedoms of others. To my mind at least, a career in the armed services is a fairly selfless choice.

Your last sentence is true, but we don't worship those who cause wounding/death (the conflict initiators), (in fact we don't worship anyone) but we rember the sacrifice of those who suffered and died for the freedoms that we in the first world take for granted.


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## arkusM (Nov 11, 2010)

No argument, yytsunamiyy. 

The "rightness" or justification of war or of any particular war can be left to others, I will not engage.

I believe soldiers pay a heavy price against their soul and their humanity for their actions and choices.

On this eleventh day, of the eleventh month, on the eleventh hour the sacrifice and tremendous loss _*to*_ War is not forgotten. I mourn for all their souls and wear the blood stained poppy to be reminded of the cost of war. A contemplative ritual... lest we forget.


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## Greg Truby (Nov 11, 2010)

Like Joe, I can remember the old lounge being shut down and why. I have made a couple of attempts to craft a brief response to _yytsunamiyy, _trying to diplomatically state my POV, which I believe is shared by many or most of my countrymen.

But I am unable to draft anything that does not risk encouraging political debate so I shall keep my big yap shut on that point and simply express my gratitude to all who have shouldered a weapon and stood watch against Evil so that I might sleep under a blanket of freedom and that I might offer the same blessing to my children. Thank you.


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## yytsunamiyy (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't want to turn this into a political debate either. From my POV every single person that was wounded on body or soul or killed is to be mourned. I don't believe that the dead ask for the "right" or "wrong" of their death. Each and every one is a tragic loss to humanity. 
I am thankful for the freedom I enjoy and I thank God and the allied armed forces for not having the third Reich win WWII. Neithertheless, I can not understand the way you honour your vets - it just looks too much like hero-worship rather than mourning to me.


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## Domski (Nov 12, 2010)

Those who do not remember their past are condemned to repeat their mistakes.

Or something like that anyway.

Dom


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## cornflakegirl (Nov 12, 2010)

When you go home, tell them of us and say
For their tomorrows, we gave our today.

It's the inscription on many memorials, and I think it sums up well the sentiment we feel. Yes, war is incredibly awful and the motives are usually messy at best - but I am deeply grateful, and awed, that there were and are people who sacrifice their lives on my behalf.


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## Joe4 (Nov 12, 2010)

> Neithertheless, I can not understand the way you honour your vets - it just looks too much like hero-worship rather than mourning to me.


Like I said, I want to avoid any "political debate", but I do realize that we have people here from many different cultures and nations, and maybe they do not all understand it. 

In this country, in the "big" wars, citizens were drafted into the armed services, it was not "by choice" that they served. Many ended up dying, getting injured, or experiencing first-hand the atrocities of war. Most did not ask for this, they had no choice in the matter. The least we can do is say "thank you" to them. And that is really what it is here, saying "thank you" (to both dead and alive veterans), not "hero worshipping". War is not glorified on this day, it is a very somber day.<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->


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## JamesW (Nov 12, 2010)

This is one of the only days of the year I actually care about deeply.

yytsunamiyy - Many people take it as a rememberance of EVERYONE who lost their lives, no matter of their race, gender or profession.

I work in an office with ~40% overseas staff; Germans, Hungarians, Polish, Dutch, Aussies (to name but a few) and everyone paid their respects in their own way, which I believe is important.

Anywho, I read this on wiki and it made me very emotional (it's an extract from a 1919 newspaper when the first rememberence day was held):



> The first stroke of eleven produced a magical effect. The tram cars glided into stillness, motors ceased to cough and fume, and stopped dead, and the mighty-limbed dray horses hunched back upon their loads and stopped also, seeming to do it of their own volition. Someone took off his hat, and with a nervous hesitancy the rest of the men bowed their heads also. Here and there an old soldier could be detected slipping unconsciously into the posture of 'attention'. An elderly woman, not far away, wiped her eyes, and the man beside her looked white and stern. Everyone stood very still ... The hush deepened. It had spread over the whole city and become so pronounced as to impress one with a sense of audibility. It was a silence which was almost pain ... And the spirit of memory brooded over it all.


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Remembrance_Day


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## Greg Truby (Nov 12, 2010)

In the summer of my sixteenth year I attended Boys State. It is something that is organized by the American Legion, a veterans' organization, with the purpose of teaching young men about good government through forming a mock state government. As is quite common among sixteen and seventeen year-old lads, I was full of youthful enthusiasm, thought I knew way more than I did, and was a bit of a smartass (yes, I know, tough to believe). Each morning began by assembling the couple-hundred of us in the courtyard to take roll call and to raise the colors and salute the flag and recite the Pledge of Allegiance. As the flag went up we were cracking jokes and loose with our posture - until we saw how a Veteran salutes our flag. I looked up and saw the posture, the form of his salute and I saw in his eyes that when he looked at our flag he remembered every one of his comrades that fell and did not come home. We all saw it. He didn't need to say a word, wordlessly he had said a bookful. We stood straighter and we joined him with a pride we had not experienced before. That is the impact that a vet can have long after the fighting is done. I do not worship them. I most certainly do not glorify war - I was a Peace Corps Volunteer. But I most certainly respect and honor our veterans and thank them for giving me the chance to live in peace.


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## HalfAce (Nov 12, 2010)

I don't speak for anyone but myself, but as a vet, I don't particularly care to be honored (and certainly not worshiped) for my service to my country.

Simple acknowledgment of the sacrifices - bloody or not - that continue to be made in the name of liberty for one and all is sufficient. (To be thanked is always welcome, but to me, that's just common courtesy.)

I don't see Veteran's Day as a day of mourning or worship. It's simply a day of remembrance to those who gave of themselves for the rest of us.

Basically, to a soldier or vet it boils down to this. 
"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the _death_ your right to say it."

Freedom isn't free.


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## Atroxell (Nov 12, 2010)

I would like to take this chance although late, to recognize that anyone who has served or is serving in uniform for their Country. There are few people in this world who would willingly walk into a fight, risking their lives for others whom they do not know.

I am the first generation of my family to not serve the US military since the American Revolution. If you name the battle, foreign or domestic, I have probably had family fight and sometimes die there. WWII affected my family from both sides, as I have Uncles (now mostly gone) who fought on both the German and American sides. Although I sometimes regret not serving, I have a deep respect for those who serve, fight and die in order to allow me the Freedom to make the decision.

Veteran's Day was never intended for the glorification of war, death or violence, nor to define heroism. It is intended to remember those who served and died in service to the People and Ideals of Our Country.

I would also like to take this time to recognize and thank my son, Josh, who is currently serving as a Navy Corpsman. I know from him that his duty is not only to his fellow soldiers, but to all of the people they fight for--and against. As a US Navy Corpsman, he is as likely to treat the enemy as he is to treat one of his own. And I know from some of his fellow Corpsmen who have been deployed that this happens in Afghanistan. Josh stands in my eyes as a fine example of what a young American can be--tough, reliable, defiant, humble and patriotic. Although the job is often tough, I have never heard him or his fellow Corpsman brag about their actions. The most often heard comment I have received is, "Just doing my job, Sir."

Although he has not (yet) been deployed overseas, I know he stands ready and can be counted upon to perform some of the most physically, spiritually and mentally abrasive tasks that one can be called upon. And I know that he would do it for anyone that needs the help, not just his own men and women.

That's the American Spirit, and that is my Hero. The American Hero is not personified by an individual, but an Ideology.

I am truly thankful for men and women who hold these Truths so close to their heart. And I Thank and Respect each and every one of them, whether I know them or not. 

That is why instead of just a cheap excuse for a day off work, for the last 12 years I attend the Veteran's Day memorial ceremony at the local VFW. It takes 30 minutes out of my day off--but how much have they given me? I recommend everyone to find out next year where their VFW holds their ceremony and discover the brave and humble men and women who served you by attending. The "when" is easy...11 am.

I would also like to encourage everyone, anywhere, to take a moment from your day when you see someone in uniform and simply shake their hand and say, "Thank you." They are there for you--Show that you are there for them.


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## xld (Nov 12, 2010)

yytsunamiyy said:


> My 0.02:
> As a German I simply don't get the American (and British) hero-worship of veterans. Here we do have a national day of mourning - for ALL the victims of war, be they military or civilian, German, American, british or of any other nationality. It's called Volkstrauertag.
> Any person who is killed or wounded in any armed conflict is one person to much. Who ever causes the wounding or death of another human is not someone to be worshipped, but someone to be despised.



Mate, it is not worshipping anyone for killing others (the enemy), but giving thanks because they were prepared to give up their lives in the defence of their country. Irrespective of nationality or history, there is nothing cheap or tacky about that. 

The First World War had a huge effect on us here, the UK. Generally speaking, the blame for that trauma is not laid on the countries we fought, more on the military hierarchy. There is a saying that our troops were ... lions led by donkeys. 

Our soldiers have given so much. Take a look at some of the Tonks' drawings, http://www.rcseng.ac.uk/fundraising...t/heritage/tonks-drawings-conservation-appeal. Regardless of whether the cause was right or wrong, that level of sacrifice should be honoured, should never be forgotten.

It's as much a ceremony of regret as anything else. As the saying goes ... for your tomorrow, we gave our today.


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## ryan60 (Nov 13, 2010)

Here in India, we don't celebrate any veterans day. Kudos to all the soldiers and officers who participated in any war though.


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