# What a TEASE



## hatman (Jun 5, 2009)

Not sure if anyone noticed, but I haven't been 'round the board too much in the last, oh, I don't know, year or so.  Been spread pretty thin around the workplace.  But some of my most pressing hardware has shipped (one item 3 days early, and ond one 3 years late... the rest somewhere in the middle... I call that a pretty good average).  And so I've been gradually working back into the board again, over the last couple of weeks.  Until yesterday (DOH) my boss let's us know that one of the experienced engineers in the group is going out to our Long Beach office to help THEM out for a few months... leaving me to split his workload with the newbie.  

And on the homefront, you can congratulate me (I think).  We are expecting our Third come this Christmas.  While certain family members are pulling for Jesus, if it's a boy, I'm partial to Levon... or even Ender.  Just Kidding (about the name thing, not the pregnancy, that's real).  Anyway, back to the grind.


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## Greg Truby (Jun 5, 2009)

I had noticed your absence and had wondered what you’d been up to lately. Unfortunately, I too have been scarce around these parts. Our CS team has gone from 23 to 12, i.e. about a 48% loss of manpower, but sales are actually up. So all of us that used to plan for the future are now having to roll up our sleeves and do front-line CS work in order to provide same-day responses to customer issues. The number of e-mails hitting my inbox is up about six- or sevenfold. 

OK, back to the trenches for me, too. Looks like two new e-mails showed up while I was writing this post… *sigh*

edit -- DOH! *Congratulations* on the coming bundle of joy!


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## hatman (Jun 5, 2009)

Yeah, I hear your manpower situation.  The truth about our actual manpower situation is actually much worse than I implied... we have 3 mechanical  engineers right now, working with product... of which one is still VERY new.  So our loss of one is a 33% reduction.  Plus the spares contract that we are just getting rolling on has about 100 replacement components, versus the 30 we have built to date, with a commit date that's about twice as optimistic (2 years for qty 100 instead of 5 years for qty 30).  Of course, management figures we know what we are doing now, so we can do it faster better cheaper and with fewer resources and less manpower.  

Thanx for the congrats.


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 5, 2009)

hatman said:


> (one item 3 days early, and ond one 3 years late...



Was the pee recycler one of those projects?


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## hatman (Jun 5, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> Was the pee recycler one of those projects?


 
I'm impressed that you got so close with so few facts.

Not exactly.  While I work on components for the Water Processor, which makes drinking water from the output of the Urine Processor, the Water Processor, as a prototype, shipped from our plant almost 5 years ago.  While my company shipped to our customer on-time, that system integrator, who designed/built the Urine Procesor and provided the entire system to Nasa, did so almost 3 years late.  

Right now, we are hip deep in making spare parts for the Water Processor.  The components of the WPA that I am responsible for have more or less shipped around their contract date... so far.  I'm a little concerned about some of the more complex stuff coming up.

The component that shipped three years late was a spare part of the Oxygen Generator that contains the Electrolytic Cell Stack and Rotary Phase Separator.


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 6, 2009)

hatman said:


> The component that shipped three years late was a spare part of the Oxygen Generator that contains the Electrolytic Cell Stack and Rotary Phase Separator.




When the hydrogen is separated, what is it used for?

So with the system integrator being 3 years late, what did they do in the meantime?


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## snowblizz (Jun 8, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> When the hydrogen is separated, what is it used for?
> 
> So with the system integrator being 3 years late, what did they do in the meantime?


Duct-tape and prayers I imagine.


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## hatman (Jun 8, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> When the hydrogen is separated, what is it used for?


 
For now, it's just vented overboard.  We are also working on a carbon reduction system that takes CO2 that's been scrubbed from the air, and catalyzes it with the Hydrogen to make more water, plus some waste methane that gets vented overboard.  We've been working on this system (called the Sabtier Systemfor about 30 years now, and it is scheduled to ship in October of this year.  This sytem closes the Regenerative Environmental Control & Life Support System (Regen ECLSS) loop.  



Mark O'Brien said:


> So with the system integrator being 3 years late, what did they do in the meantime?


 
They shipped up bags of water.  Of course, it costs between $12,000 and $20,000 per pound to ship anything to the ISS, so a gallon of water costs about $100,000.  The Regen ECLSS system is the only hardware on station that will theoreticaly pay for itself.  It's a VERY expensive system, but it will be completely paid off in a handful of missions.


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 8, 2009)

hatman said:


> For now, it's just vented overboard.  We are also working on a carbon reduction system that takes CO2 that's been scrubbed from the air, and catalyzes it with the Hydrogen to make more water, plus some waste methane that gets vented overboard.  We've been working on this system (called the Sabtier Systemfor about 30 years now, and it is scheduled to ship in October of this year.  This sytem closes the Regenerative Environmental Control & Life Support System (Regen ECLSS) loop.



Cool thanks for the information on that.  I figured it was probably probably just vented, but I was wondering if there was a way to reuse it for water.  I could continue to ask questions forever on this, but I'll try to make these my last.

If some waste methane is vented then does that become the only place where hydrgogen is expelled thus representing a loss in hydrogen available to regenerate water?  Given that, what type of water recovery would be expected from the Sabtier System?


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## hatman (Jun 8, 2009)

Oops, I typoed: The System is Sabatier (after the French Nobel Proze winner who came up with the Hydrogenization process).

Aside from the Carbon, there is a water loss from the loop within the Methane.  The information I have come across indicates that the theoretical water recovery efficiency for the system is 93%.  Howvwe, these numbers were derived about a decade ago, and are burind in the intial project proposal.  I do not believe that this accounts for the residual water that cannot be pulled from the urine in the UPA... if ALL of the water is removed, then the resulting crystal structure can't be removed without chiselling it out.  Again, our customer designed and built teh UPA, but I am pretty sure that some sort of syrupy slurry is left over from the evaporation process, which is then disposed of, implying that there is still a high water conent.  Since the unit runs batch-wise, I am not sure how many batches it processes before the slurry is dicarded.  However, I believe that the amount of makeup water needed to keep the total water content of the "loop" is on the order of magnitude of gallons per month, rathe rthan the previous usage of gallons per day for a ful crew.  Some buzz-terms I have heard around here over the years suggested that the amount of moisture in the food was enough to make up for systemic water loss, but I think that is probably overly ambitious in the actual implementation.

While it's possible to break down to the methane further to get the Hydrogen back, I am not aware of any research in that area.

Feel free to ask questions.  It's what I do on a daily basis, and it's pretty cool.


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 8, 2009)

I didn't realise that there was an evaporation step.  I just re-read the article link that you posted some time ago.  The article referenced, adsorption, IX, UF and the MCV for bacterial control.

I found a good video on space.com with a walkthrough of the system.  I'm slightly surprised that the iodine feed is at the end of the process and not at the beginning due to the risk of biological fouling of the medio and UF membrane.

http://www.space.com/common/media/video/player.php?videoRef=081119_RecycledUrine&mode=


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## hatman (Jun 9, 2009)

I can't actually view the video from here, due to firewall settings, but I assume it's the one with Bob Bagdigian explaining how it works, then the interviwer taking a sip of water that's been recycled.  

Anywho, IX = Ion Exchange, this is the step where Iodine is added.
MCV = Microbial Check Valve, this is non-depleting iodine bed that prevents bacterial migration from the contaminated end of the system to the clean end in the reverse flow direction.
UF = UltraFiltration, though it isn't the nomenclature we usually use, as we have several filtration beds.

Actually, the other thing I have always found inetresting is that the filtration beds are also downstream of the recirculation pump in the Water Processor.

Biofouling does not seem to be a problem in the filters of the Water Processor.  We have pressure sensors across the filter beds, so they can be replaced when they get clogged.  I would venture to guess that one of the reasons to put the iodine introduction downstream is that it would be just one more chemical to be removed in the High Temperature Catalytic Reactor Bed, and then the iodine would need to be reintroduced downstream anyway.  I think the idea is that biologic growth in the dirty end of the loop is fine, provided there is a means and method for preventing contamination beyond a certain point. Hence the iodinization (SP?) of the water before it goes into the storage tanks.

Yes, the evaporation portion of the process is where the nasty salts in the urine get left behind.  This is probably the most complex part of the process, and it's not owned by us (though we did bid on it some 10 years ago).  It's also the part that malfunctioned and got all of the media attention back in November (while at the same time our systems were working flawlessly).

Coincidentally, biofouling is actually more of a concern in the Electrolytic Cell Stack.  Counterintuitively, we have a De-Ionizing bed as the the first step in that system to remove the iodine from the water coming from the Water Processor, since the iodine interferes with the chemical reaction that takes place there.


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 9, 2009)

hatman said:


> Anywho, IX = Ion Exchange, this is the step where Iodine is added.
> MCV = Microbial Check Valve, this is non-depleting iodine bed that prevents bacterial migration from the contaminated end of the system to the clean end in the reverse flow direction.
> UF = UltraFiltration, though it isn't the nomenclature we usually use, as we have several filtration beds.



Ah yes, um actually I was the one that put in the abbreviations.  The article didn't use them.  



hatman said:


> Coincidentally, biofouling is actually more of a concern in the Electrolytic Cell Stack.  Counterintuitively, we have a De-Ionizing bed as the the first step in that system to remove the iodine from the water coming from the Water Processor, since the iodine interferes with the chemical reaction that takes place there.



That is counter-intuitive, I also assumed that the ultrafiltration is after the resin to catch any media leaking through in addition to particles that come in the untreated influent.

Hah!  I defy the Trubinator to hijack this thread.


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## Greg Truby (Jun 10, 2009)

So for all of you who have been reading this thread - I know you've been wondering to yourself: "what in billy-blue-blazes does this Mark O'Brien character do for a living that he is able to give the appearance of actually comprehending what Paul does for a living?" 

I say we post our guesses and Mr. O'Brien can decide whether to simply respond yea or nay, or perhaps a warmer/colder or perhaps he can come up with a series of hints to breadcrumb us to the proper career guess.

I'll get the ball rolling.  My best guess is that Mr. O'Brien is an out-of-work philosophy major that is presently making ends meet by working as a roadie for a travelling polka band and the occasional hunting & fishing wear catalog modeling gig. He is presently conducting hydroponic experiments in his basement to improve yield on his line of "herbal supplements" that he peddles online and this is what led him to an understanding of recycling waste water.

So, anyone else care to hazard a guess as to Mark's profession?


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## hatman (Jun 10, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> Ah yes, um actually I was the one that put in the abbreviations. The article didn't use them.


 
I know.  But I figured other members not familiar with the acronyms might be interested in knowing...



Mark O'Brien said:


> That is counter-intuitive, I also assumed that the ultrafiltration is after the resin to catch any media leaking through in addition to particles that come in the untreated influent


 
The downstream end of the de-ionizing bed in the Oxygen Generator has a 5 micron screen to catch bed media.  As far as the influent to the system... it's drinking water, fully treated by the Water Processor and very clean (actually, I think that one of the filter beds in the Water Processor is a 0.2 micron, but don't quote me on that... I didn't design the system, and I haven't owned/worked on those filter beds in several years).  On page 3 of this article is a nice flowchart of the interconnected systems, minus the Sabatier (which you can mentally insert as collecting and processing the waste H2 and CO2).

Actually, a very interesting problem we had with influent water last year involved the alternate water source for the Ogygen Generator before the Water Processor was launched.  It seems that NASA was providing the system wih fuel cell water, which is basically devoid of dissolved gases, which caused it to re-absorb the thermal protection bubble that we count on being coalesced on the Deionizing Bed screen.  



Mark O'Brien said:


> Hah! I defy the Trubinator to hijack this thread.


 
So did you REALLY think that Greg would shy from such an obvious gauntlet?



Greg Truby said:


> My best guess is that Mr. O'Brien is an out-of-work philosophy major that is presently making ends meet by working as a roadie for a travelling polka band and the occasional hunting & fishing wear catalog modeling gig. He is presently conducting hydroponic experiments in his basement to improve yield on his line of "herbal supplements" that he peddles online and this is what led him to an understanding of recycling waste water.
> 
> So, anyone else care to hazard a guess as to Mark's profession?


 
I'm just glad that Greg assumes aeveryone reading this post has paid enough attention to know what I do.  I'd hate to see what kind of muddle he would make from my profession, avocation and hobbies.

That being said, I seem to remember at least one past thread where Mark talked about what he does... which devolved into the two of us exchanging some professional commentary regarding water purification in that thread too.  I leave it as an excercise for the the student to locate that thread and figure this whole thing out.  Not that I think anyone but me, Greg and Mark are really paying much attention to this thread (in spite of what I said earlier about explaining some acronyms).


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## cornflakegirl (Jun 10, 2009)

I'm paying attention. Although not necessarily understanding. It's fascinating!


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## scottylad2 (Jun 10, 2009)

Is he the original series of Flash Gordon? or Lost?


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## Domski (Jun 10, 2009)

I switched off after about the first couple of posts but at a guess I'd say either Alchemist or Toilet Salesman.

Dom


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## RoryA (Jun 10, 2009)

How _does _one hijack a serious discussion about taking the p1ss?


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 10, 2009)

hatman said:


> I know.  But I figured other members not familiar with the acronyms might be interested in knowing...



I honestly did think anyone else would be reading this.  I thought this had evolved into the type of discussion you have with a random at the bar while on the road after a hard day of peddling hamster milking machines.




hatman said:


> Actually, a very interesting problem we had with influent water last year involved the alternate water source for the Ogygen Generator before the Water Processor was launched.  It seems that NASA was providing the system wih fuel cell water, which is basically devoid of dissolved gases, which caused it to re-absorb the thermal protection bubble that we count on being coalesced on the Deionizing Bed screen.



Nice catch.  How did the problem get solved?  Bubble cabin air through the water or just stop using the alternate source?

What type of analytical testing can they do up there to ensure water quality?  I'm assuming that on-line instrumentation would be useful, but that they'd have to resort to wet chemistry methods.



hatman said:


> So did you REALLY think that Greg would shy from such an obvious gauntlet?



Actually I am impressed by the hijacking.  I kind of wish my profile didn't spoil some of the fun.


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## RichardS (Jun 10, 2009)

I've been following this thread since it first started. All very interesting, and beyond my ken.

BTW, I reckon M O'B is a bare hunter.


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## hatman (Jun 10, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> I honestly did think anyone else would be reading this. I thought this had evolved into the type of discussion you have with a random at the bar while on the road after a hard day of peddling hamster milking machines.


 
 You never know when Greg is lurking in the back of the bar, just waiting to pounce on a serious conversation, and lighten the mood a little.  




Mark O'Brien said:


> Nice catch..


 
I wouldn't exactky call it a "catch".  During an otherwise normal start-up, we suddenly got an automated system shutdown due to a LOW pressure reading in what should have been a pressurized leg.  And as we watched the telemetry, the pressure dropped over the course of an hour down to 2psia... the realtime brainstorming shifted from a leak to the cabin, to a leak to space vacuum.  Three days later, I finally came up with a scenario to explain the data... but it took a team of much smarter people than me to put the numbers to it and a whole lot of chasing through NASA to find out the source and chemical makeup of the water they were using.



Mark O'Brien said:


> How did the problem get solved? Bubble cabin air through the water or just stop using the alternate source?


 
In the short term, we enacted a flight rule to maintain the rack temperature within a 2 degree range, to reduce the pressure swings, even when we were not running the system. We also re-designed a check valve and a relieving solenoid valve in S/N 2 of that component (which was just getting ready to ship) and launched it on the next shuttle, to widen the tolerance of the component to pressure shifts.  The new unit also had a fully charged gas bubble, which would take almost a year to be depleted at the usage rate the system was seeing at the time.  But the long-term solution was to launch the water processor, and start providing water with the proper range of dissolved gases. 



Mark O'Brien said:


> What type of analytical testing can they do up there to ensure water quality? I'm assuming that on-line instrumentation would be useful, but that they'd have to resort to wet chemistry methods.


 
Hah!  It took me longer than I expected to find, but I remembered that on the same launch that the Water Processor went up, so too did teh TOCA... though I couldn't remember what the heck it stood for, and I have no idea how it works:



> The joint crew also will activate the Total
> Organic Carbon Analyzer (TOCA II), which
> will be used for on​​​​‐board water quality
> monitoring. The crew will process previously
> ...


 
We also have conductivity sensors in the water processor to detect increases is conductivity, which indicate increasedcontamination. Here is the press kit from STS-126, which launched the WPA and the TOCA (which I actually got an all-expense-paid trip to go see... VERY COOL)




Mark O'Brien said:


> Actually I am impressed by the hijacking. I kind of wish my profile didn't spoil some of the fun.


 
Really?  While his initial post had me ROTFLMFAO, I'm not seeing his usual staying power... I mean Greg would usually have about a 3:1 ratio of tangent versus on-topic posts in teh thread within 12 hours of the initial hijacking...


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## hatman (Jun 10, 2009)

RichardS said:


> I reckon M O'B is a bare hunter.


 
Meaning he hunts in the buff?


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## RichardS (Jun 10, 2009)

Yup


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 11, 2009)

hatman said:


> Hah!  It took me longer than I expected to find, but I remembered that on the same launch that the Water Processor went up, so too did teh TOCA... though I couldn't remember what the heck it stood for, and I have no idea how it works:



You went to space ona  ll expenses paid trip?  Awesome!

Yeah right, like I'm going to read all 114 pages of that document.

So here are my highlights.  

Page 30 lift mechanism for midget astronauts
Page 33 GLACIER is pretty cool  (pun intended)
Page 39 WRS
Page 40 The TOCA (I believe we have a few of these kicking around)
Page 44 Apparently Astronauts use a lot fo Purell and lick their dishes clean.
Page 74 Don't care about the aRED 
Page 97 Anagrams rock, yo!
Page 113 David Waters, he's my dog.


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 11, 2009)

hatman said:


> Meaning he hunts in the buff?



Alleged hunts in the buff, alleged.


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## RobMatthews (Jun 11, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> Alleged hunts in the buff, alleged.


Nah, it's more about what is hunted...


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## Oorang (Jun 13, 2009)

Greg Truby said:


> So, anyone else care to hazard a guess as to Mark's profession?


The fun is kind of ruined by him having it listed in his profile on on linked in 

But I am going with Cookie MOBster... Cause you know they're big and blue.


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## hatman (Jun 16, 2009)

hatman said:


> And on the homefront, you can congratulate me (I think). We are expecting our Third come this Christmas.


 
We lost the baby this weekend.  Truth to tell, I almost lost Kelley too.  The hospital staff seemed much more rattled than I ever expected to see professionals, which almost made me lose my own hold, when I realized just how much more serious it was than I had at first thought.  But they managed to stop most of the bleeding before they brought her in for surgery, which made a big difference.  Without going into TOO much detail, they gave her 6 liters of fluid in two lines to stabilize her before the surgery, then gave her 3 units of blood afterward.  And when they discharged her the next day, her numbers were still somewhat low.


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## RichardS (Jun 16, 2009)

Jeez, that's tough. Really sorry for your loss. Hope Kelly and you are managing OK.

Richard


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## cornflakegirl (Jun 17, 2009)

Paul - I'm so sorry. That must have been really frightening.


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## RoryA (Jun 17, 2009)

Really sorry to hear about your loss. My thoughts are with you.


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## SydneyGeek (Jun 17, 2009)

hatman said:


> We lost the baby this weekend.  Truth to tell, I almost lost Kelley too.  The hospital staff seemed much more rattled than I ever expected to see professionals, which almost made me lose my own hold, when I realized just how much more serious it was than I had at first thought.  But they managed to stop most of the bleeding before they brought her in for surgery, which made a big difference.  Without going into TOO much detail, they gave her 6 liters of fluid in two lines to stabilize her before the surgery, then gave her 3 units of blood afterward.  And when they discharged her the next day, her numbers were still somewhat low.



Really sorry to hear that. It might sound trite, but how are you coping? And it's good to hear that Kelley made it through. 

Denis


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## hatman (Jun 17, 2009)

SydneyGeek said:


> Really sorry to hear that. It might sound trite, but how are you coping? And it's good to hear that Kelley made it through.
> 
> Denis


 
I'm coping okay.  I'm very fortunate that my parents live just up the street, and are retired.  When Kelley broke down yesterday while I was making lunch for the kids, my dad was already at the house doing some yard-work, so I was able to turn the kids over to him until my mom came over to help, while I went outside to keep Kelley in as close to one piece as possible.  My mom is with Kelley and kids each day for the rest of the week while I am at work.  It helps.  The pastor lives close, and is able to visit frequently, which helps.  Having two older children that need me in one piece helps.  At this point, I'm just plowing ahead with work, house chores, taking care of the kids, taking care of Kelley, getting ready for blueberry season, and generally keeping my **** together... 

Thanx for asking...


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## Oorang (Jun 17, 2009)

What a terrible tragedy. Words won't make it better, but my thoughts and prayers are with you.


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## Oaktree (Jun 17, 2009)

My prayers are with you and your family


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## texasalynn (Jun 17, 2009)

So sorry to hear the news.  Glad your wife is ok, or ok as can be considering the circumstances.


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## RobMatthews (Jun 17, 2009)

Man, that's tragic! Deepest condolences. Our first is 5months now, and ... couldn't imagine your pain.


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## Mark O'Brien (Jun 17, 2009)

I'm really sorry for your loss.


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## shades (Jun 20, 2009)

My prayers for you and Kelley and the other two children. Blessings


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## Warship (Jun 20, 2009)

Very sorry for your loss.  Thoughts and prayers to you and yours.
Roy


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## arkusM (Jun 22, 2009)

wow... So sorry man. I cannot imagine... my thoughts and prayers for your family.


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## Domski (Jun 22, 2009)

Sorry to hear your sad news.

Dom


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## Greg Truby (Jun 25, 2009)

Paul,

I just returned from Boy Scout camp with Gabriel and just read your post.  My deepest sympathy and condolences on your loss.  But I am so very, very glad that you didn't lose Kelley.  I too shall put you and your family in my prayers.


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## hatman (Jun 25, 2009)

Thank you all for your kind words.  Your sympathies, and your prayers are appreciated.  Things are getting back to normal, more or less.  Kelley has had a couple of good cries, mostly due to hormones.  Like me, she was not as upset about the loss of the baby as many of our family and friends expected... the trauma of the medical procedures and the near-death experience were far more traumatic.  She's still very tired, but I have gotten into the routine of doing the shopping and laundry.  As a stay-at-home-mom, spending time with teh kids is more important (and probably more stressful) for her.  On a positive note, she didn't need to have her dress let out for her sister's wedding this weekend (she's maid of honor).  Anothe rpositive note is that when I go grocery shopping, I stick to the list, so we may actually have some money left over in the grocery budget this pay-period, rather than being over .


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