# humans - computers



## iknowu99 (Apr 5, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GIqk4agzKPE


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## erik.van.geit (Apr 5, 2007)

Hi,



> In 2049 a computer for $1000 will exceed intelligence of human race


will the dollar still exist?
will computers still exist?
will humans still exist?
what will be the value of 1 $?
how would intelligence be defined?

A lot of questions I do not bother 

I would ask


> will any computer ever exceed intelligence of human race


for me the answer is NO, but this still depends on my definition of intelligence

kind regards,
Erik

wouldn't know what the third option is about: "matrix is coming"


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## lenze (Apr 5, 2007)

An interesting topic to ponder. My personal belief is that computers will only surpass human intelligence or have true AI when one can pass the "I know what I know test" 
An example: You ask me these questions
1)What is your birthday  (July 4)
2)What is your daughter's birthday (July 18)
3)What is Abe Lincoln's birthday (Let me think about that. I learned that in Elem school. Oh yeah Feb 12)
4)What is Erik's birthday (I haven't a clue) 

In the first 2 questions, I should know and readily respond. In the 3rd, I do know and I KNOW I know, but might need to cogitate to answer. For the 4th question, I don't know and I KNOW I don't know.

A computer does not have that quality. It does NOT know what it knows. It only can respond by checking its data sources and then respond with the fact the "information is not available"

Just my thoughts
lenze


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## Norie (Apr 5, 2007)

When I studied AI (low level) the standard test was considered the Turing Test.


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## Jon von der Heyden (Apr 5, 2007)

Some people in my office are useless and should be easily replaced by computers


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## ExcelChampion (Apr 9, 2007)

Aladin probably has some good insight.

http://www.amazon.ca/Soar-Cognitive...622735?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176127655&sr=1-10

A bit pricey for his book...but I'm sure the common reader wouldn't make such a purchase.


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## Lewiy (Apr 9, 2007)

I doubt a computer will ever be truly "intelligent" but will be used for exactly the same as what they are now; to do things faster and more efficiently than a human could, it's just that what they will be required to do will be more complicated.

Back at the dawn of the computer they were just room-sized calculators, now they assist in almost every aspect of modern living/working, but fundimentally, they only ever do what they are told to, so the human must first "intelligently" understand before letting the computer in on it!



> will the dollar still exist?
> will computers still exist?
> will humans still exist?
> what will be the value of 1 $?
> how would intelligence be defined?



1. Probably
2. Hopefully
3. Not if computers don't
4. It would be worth $1, its value against everything else is the key
5. Intelligence in the new generations seems to be going downhill, so perhaps in actual fact the question is "Will humans ever become dumber than computers are now?"


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## SydneyGeek (Apr 10, 2007)

I used to teach people who were scared of computers. I would settle them down by telling them:

"A computer is a high-speed moron. all it does is count to 1 very fast".

That settled a few nerves.  I guess it comes down to tests like the one lenze mentioned, or a self-awareness test. When a computer can independently invent, analyse and solve a problem for a scenario that it has not seen before, it'll be getting there. Otherwise, for all the bells and whistles, it's still a fancy machine. 

Denis


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## Oorang (Apr 10, 2007)

It's interesting to me that the most promising solutions toward AI tend to mirror the human brain. I think when you get right down too it, if we have AI it will end up being an organic computer that was taught using a nueral network.... So after all of our research and all of our progress we will probably end up reinventing the wheel. The real promise of AI is a better understanding of "I". By the the time we can create an AI, we will likely fully understand our own workings. 
The issue raised, of course, is that knowledge is power. And what will we do with that knowlege? I am not optimistic, considering every really heinous deed humans have suffered throughout time has been inflicted by... Humans. So at best we create another us, and more ominously we create a more powerful us. Meanwhile we with a full understanding of us we would then have all the power we want to mess with us. 
Glad I'll be dead for it.


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## mortgageman (Apr 10, 2007)

> An interesting topic to ponder. My personal belief is that computers will only surpass human intelligence or have true AI when one can pass the "I know what I know test"
> An example: You ask me these questions
> 1)What is your birthday  (July 4)
> 2)What is your daughter's birthday (July 18)
> ...



Shucks - you are giving a computer way to much credit.  I would be impressed if a computer could handle the following:

1) Mary lost her red balloon and then she cried
2) Mary's age is a) 0-15 or b) 15+

If the computer could answer the question correct (and not because it flipped a coin inside it's internal (infernal ?) chip) I would be impressed.  It will be 1000 years before a computer could handle something as difficult as your test Lenze.


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## iknowu99 (Apr 10, 2007)

Hi Lenze
When is your bday? stored in RAM quickly found and retrieved...
Daughter's bday? same
Abe Lincoln's bday? search C:\
Erik's bday? look in "my computer", nothing found >> just like the brain >> i would ask myself, do i know erik? i know a few eriks from before, is this erik one of them - no, are there any possible clues as to figuring out his bday - no, are you sure he's never mentioned it before - pretty sure. etc....these questions don't end for a human - with time one can find out Erik's bday; it seems like that's the only difference. Because a PC can only look through the local harddrives for the answer - but perhaps the computer can search the internet and etc - and the questions will not end as well.

Computers are conditional thinking - humans are unconditional....or... wait are humans unconditional?  if green go, if red stop, if 7 am go to work, if 6pm turn on tv for news, if etc etc....  EDIT: and put a big for loop around it 

or does human instinct favor the unconditional thinking? this way the humans can rely on computers for conditinal thinking and relax and enjoy instinct behavior





please keep the votes coming!


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## Cbrine (Apr 10, 2007)

What about these qualifiers?
Abe Licoln's birthday?  A data search?  How many Abe Licoln's are there?  We know which one lenze was talking about, but a computer won't?
Same issue with Erik's birthday?  Which Erik?  Again using fuzzy logic we infer that lenze is talking about our Erik here at Mr Excel, a computer can't make that leap.

The terminators will never rule the Earth!!!!


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## iknowu99 (Apr 10, 2007)

I am suggesting the opposite of Lenze's "i know what i don't know" for constructive argument's sake.  I am suggesting there is human doubt. And a computer knows for sure - found or not found. I wish Erik would watch Matrix; it's a movie and I am interested in your opinion.  I suggest a positive idea of the matrix will evolve. People want to be in an imaginary world - sorta like now one might be in front of a PC, intrigued by a reflection in the monitor for long long periods of time!


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## Lewiy (Apr 10, 2007)

> I suggest a positive idea of the matrix will evolve. People want to be in an imaginary world - sorta like now one might be in front of a PC, intrigued by a reflection in the monitor for long long periods of time!



People already immerse themselves in an imaginary world, they're called video games and already we see that some of the most popular (Grand Theft Auto, Final Fantasy, online RPG's, etc.) are ones which contain a "world" in which the player can "live" for hours of their lives.  But all this does not mean that the computer controls your experience.  The immersion you experience when playing is an entirely human creation.

Now if a computer could design and distribute a game world which humans find pleasurable, that would really be something, but I don't think it's ever gonna happen.


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## litrelord (Apr 11, 2007)

Most of our decisions aren’t just based on what is correct though. It’s down to our moods. How many times have you questioned whether to buy something that you know you can’t really afford but gone ahead anyway, or stayed out for that one last drink, gone to a show when you know you have to be up early etc 

We make all these choices, despite the fact that following the strict risk/reward logic we shouldn’t because they bring us pleasure. That’s something that a machine will never know. Unless we program in pleasure and pain and manage to emulate it but why would we want to do that. I can’t think of anything worse than pressing a button only to be told by my PC that it was hooked up to some female PC over in another country all night and subsequently will be performing at half speed today until it’s recovered.

Nick


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## gingerafro (Apr 11, 2007)

> I can’t think of anything worse than pressing a button only to be told by my PC that it was hooked up to some female PC over in another country all night and subsequently will be performing at half speed today until it’s recovered.



  

Reminds me of Kryten getting double polaroids after reading a magazine about washing machines on Red Dwarf.


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## iknowu99 (Apr 11, 2007)

Hey Nick, what you comment on is the exact reason i suggest having a computer. wouldn't it be great for the computer to schedule the optimal plan for the day for you? i mean, based on the given resources the PC would figure out the best method.  Like buying something you can't afford.  If you can't afford it then you simply don't have the money for it?! I want a spaceship because I want to check out the moon but i can't afford it.  Perhaps the material things you call, "can't afford" are affordable and just need someone to compute what is being sacrificed. Ever make the bad decision of staying out late? uhh - yes. but i don't regret it!! i can't because i made the decision consciously. I knew what I was doing and it was a choice. Maybe a computer would compute to how late one can go to and still not miss work - be ok the next day.


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## litrelord (Apr 11, 2007)

But the knowledge of individual emotions and moods is surely impossible to calculate without giving it all the information you currently have in your brain. I should go home but I'm having fun so i want to stay out. If I stay out it will be good but a particular person is out as well I always get stuck talking to them so maybe I shouldn't. What work do i have on the next day. How alert will I need to be tomorrow morning first thing? etc etc. Too many variables.

Logically I should go home. There's (hopefully) always another night that will be just as good. 

It's either moving the computers thinking away from pure logic or trying to apply logic to emotion.

If you apply logic to emotion you can't have love. that's the most illogical feeling you can ever have. The things you'd do for someone you love just defy explanation. and if we did manage to get the whole process written down and explained exactly so there was no mystery anymore - well that would be worse in my mind. I like having some things that can't be explained. 

Nick


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## iknowu99 (Apr 11, 2007)

Oh yes! too many variables...but that phrase suggests there are finite variables....and even when infinite >> wouldn't a computer prioritize more appropriate?

the rest i agree on but still not sure what humans want...


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## litrelord (Apr 11, 2007)

> wouldn't a computer prioritize more appropriate?



No I don't think it would. Because a lot of decisions I make may change many times as I try and make up my mind which priority i'm giving each of the items involved. x may be a bigger priority than y but I might reverse that decision before I come up with an answer and you'd have to tell the computer each time you re-prioritised or telling it once and be stuck with that decision. You're the only person who knows your individual priorities at that precise moment.


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## Oorang (Apr 11, 2007)

It would behave however it was built to behave. Unless you built it to learn and evolve, in which case it would behave how it learned to behave within the framework you laid out. 
The humorous thing in all that is that computers would need to have a "good upbringing" just like humans. GIGO.


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## Lewiy (Apr 11, 2007)

> Oh yes! too many variables...but that phrase suggests there are finite variables....and even when infinite >> wouldn't a computer prioritize more appropriate?



When you are out enjoying yourself of an evening, how many times have you actually considered *all* of the variables which would contribute to your descision as to when to leave?  I guess rarely.  However, a computer *would* take all of these varibles into account, thus resulting in a different response.

And as for priorities, I would maybe prioritise having fun at the time and take the consequences in the morning, but not always, even given the same situation twice.  The difference with a computer is that it would always make the same descision given the same varibles.


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## iknowu99 (Apr 11, 2007)

> make the same descision given the same varibles.



variable (as an Noun): something that may or does vary; a variable feature or factor

wouldn't you? make the same descision given the same variables??


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## Lewiy (Apr 11, 2007)

Not necesarily, I have the freedom to make a choice which a computer does not.  We are never really given the opportunity to put ourselves in exactly the same situation with the same variables more than once, but the fact that I can make a choice puts me above a computer which would make a calculated descision and come to the same conclusion every time.


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## TrippyTom (Apr 11, 2007)

This subject led me to finding this link:

Will Biological Computers Enable Artificially Intelligent Machines to Become Persons?


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## iknowu99 (Apr 12, 2007)

hey nick, when a human makes a choice it is also based on what he knows from before. what do you think?


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## litrelord (Apr 12, 2007)

What you know before is surely your biggest influence when making a decision. I’d say that you rate your own experience higher than anything you’ve read or been told. I just think we have a greater capacity to prioritise our knowledge and to ignore experience if we choose to than a machine would. Unless we explicitly defined every possible situation and weighted each decision that could be made under every circumstance following a machine’s advice would be more like following your conscience – we all know what the right thing to do is most of the time – doesn’t mean we’ll always do it.


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