# Solar panels (UK based)



## Richard Schollar (Sep 28, 2011)

Anyone in the UK installed solar panels on their roof and care to comment on their experience/what it cost/who installed them and whether you would do it again?

Thanks!


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 28, 2011)

There are plenty of 'free' panels in Hampshire.  There are panels powering lots of the road signs. 

On a more serious note; whilst I have no idea about cost; my Dad installed panels himself, but to avoid complexity in having it power the general electrical circuit in the house he uses it to only power the boiler.  Heating boilers cost a heck of a load so it's a real money saver...


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## RoryA (Sep 28, 2011)

My next door neighbour put his own in. Hilarious to watch, and it then rained for about a week, as it's England.


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## Richard Schollar (Sep 28, 2011)

Unless he was a professional MCS-approved installer you'd have to be an idiot to do it yourself (or like chucking money down the drain) because you wouldn't get the FIT payments.


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## SuperFerret (Sep 28, 2011)

In our area, if your house meets some criteria, you can get *free* solar panels fitted. I haven't (I don't think my tiny roof would be be big enough for a start) but a few of my friends and some work folks have had them fitted and have already seen small benefits. I suppose the big test will come in winter


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## shg (Sep 28, 2011)

What do you folks spend per kWHr for electricity? Or do you buy in MJ?


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## Richard Schollar (Sep 28, 2011)

I have in mind it is about £0.12 per kWh


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## Smitty (Sep 28, 2011)

If I remember right, when I looked at doing it on my house (a rental) two years ago a 5-7 KW system was $28-30,000 US (and that was without any rebates or tax credits).  We would have done it, but the landlord was worried who would pay if we upped and left...


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 28, 2011)

Richard Schollar said:


> I have in mind it is about £0.12 per kWh



About the same in South Africa...  Bear in mind though that a good salary here is about a third of a good salary in UK...

It's a good thing I don't work here.   8 months holiday in SA vs 4 months work in UK.  Life is good!


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## Richard Schollar (Sep 28, 2011)

Yeah don't forget you have to pay finders commission on a good proportion of that work


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## shg (Sep 28, 2011)

Yikes, I just realized that's in pounds. We pay *$*0.10. Good thing when you use 4000 in a summer month.


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## Smitty (Sep 28, 2011)

shg said:


> Yikes, I just realized that's in pounds. We pay *$*0.10. Good thing when you use 4000 in a summer month.


 
You're lucky. In Northern California it's more like $0.45.  But then again, we don't have air conditioning (and have to suffer in September when the sun is coming in the windows full bore)...


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## Richard Schollar (Sep 28, 2011)

The UK has an extremely expensive welfare state to pay for - which helps explain the high cost of everything...

Smitty, your proposed system was huge compared to the biggest residential systems you get over here!!  You yanks always do things bigger than we do


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## barry houdini (Sep 28, 2011)

shg said:


> Good thing when you use 4000 in a summer month.



Are you kidding?

We use approx 7000 a *year* perhaps a little under....although we also use gas for heating and hot water so that doubles the outlay......


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## T. Valko (Sep 28, 2011)

We don't get enough sunny days where I live to justify the initial expense.

It might pay for itself over your lifetime!


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## shg (Sep 28, 2011)

barry houdini said:


> Are you kidding?
> 
> We use approx 7000 a *year* perhaps a little under....although we also use gas for heating and hot water so that doubles the outlay......


 
We had 70 days over 100 this summer, and several over 110. This nice fall day is 97.

Pretty toasty.


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## barry houdini (Sep 28, 2011)

We're having an unprecedented heatwave (seriously) for this time of year - 80 in London today 

Is that cold in Texas?


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## shg (Sep 28, 2011)

We have an electric gate at the foot of the driveway. This past February, after a combination of freezing rain, snow, and more freezing rain, we were iced in for six days while the temp hovered in the low teens. We kept the fireplace lit the whole time and enjoyed the winter wonderland.

If you tried to talk outside, the words froze in mid-air, and you had to warm them in a frying pan to hear what you were saying.

That's cold for Texas.


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## Smitty (Sep 28, 2011)

barry houdini said:


> Is that cold in Texas?


 
That's downright chilly, especially for this year.

And I'm complaining because it's "only" around 100 here.


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## barry houdini (Sep 28, 2011)

Darn Texicans  ....everything has to bigger, taller, hotter or colder........



shg said:


> a combination of freezing rain, snow, and more freezing rain



...although that sounds more like the English weather I know and love


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## Smitty (Sep 28, 2011)

> a combination of freezing rain, snow, and more freezing rain


 
There's nothing more fun than watching people drive during a February/March ice storm in Texas.  It's like watching traffic in the rain in LA.  "StormWatch 20xx" and you can be sure that the number of wrecks will grow exponentially.


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## Atroxell (Sep 28, 2011)

Well Smitty,

    I'm jealous. Unfortunately not all Northern Californians are lucky enough to be located in a Garden of Eden like Boulder Creek. I used to live down that way (Menlo Park/Palo Alto) and it is gorgeous, especially up in the redwoods. You get your air conditioning from the Pacific Ocean...very nice!

    I, on the other hand, live in the part of Northern California that requires one to have air conditioning. The Sacramento Valley often has summertime temps above 100, but usually in the 90s, like today. Although this Summer has been extremely gentle--only about 6 or 8 days over 100. August, usually our hottest month, had no days over 100! That has not happened in 30 years.

    My air conditioning usually runs me about $250-300/month. I get a break for a month or so in the Fall, then the heater gets me for about the same. Then I get a month or so in the Spring with no heat or air required and start it all over again.

    I don't count the cost of kwH. I'm the type that would be sitting and calculating the minute by minute cost of A/C just in case someone asks about my A/C bill.


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## Toonies (Sep 28, 2011)

Hi if you want to know more check this link

http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Cashback-Calculator

some companies will actually fit free solar panels, but the catch is they keep the F.I.T payments, works out on average 1k - 1.5k per annum

its a win win situation either way 

Toonies


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## repairman615 (Sep 28, 2011)

shg said:


> ...If you tried to talk outside, the words froze in mid-air, and you had to warm them in a frying pan to hear what you were saying....


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 29, 2011)

We're not quite in summer yet but we are hitting highs of 30 in the day and as low as 1 or 2 at night (celsius BTW).

As for electricity consumption, I use about 200 units a month.  But we don't do gas here...

I'm looking at buying some land here and buying.  The piece I am looking for has two small canals running through it.  I reckon I could use it for hydro electricity; I figure it's something relatively easy to make myself.


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## Richard Schollar (Sep 29, 2011)

How big is the piece of land?


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## WaterGypsy (Sep 29, 2011)

I live on a narrowboat and although I haven't installed panels yet I might do in the near future - from asking around I can get stick on panels for a total expenditure of around £600 which should provide the vast majority of my electrical needs when I am away from a shoreline ....

..... but as my total outlay for electricity through a mains line since March has been less than £10 that probably isn't a lot of help for you land lubbers


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 29, 2011)

Richard Schollar said:


> How big is the piece of land?



4500 sqm

They're small canals, for irrigation, not for boats.  Only about 1m wide...


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## Richard Schollar (Sep 29, 2011)

Does this mean you're going to become a farmer?  I bet you want to keep sheep on the land, dontcha Jon?    That or goats


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 29, 2011)

Just cos you have a thing for goats Richard...  That's right; we know all about your extra curricular activities with Daisy! 

Actually Kristy is the farmer.  We are getting some laying hens in soon, so far we just have the fruit and veg on the go.  Only recently planted but we are hoping to grow enough to feed ourselves and maybe sell a bit too.


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## RoryA (Sep 29, 2011)

Jon von der Heyden said:


> We are getting some laying hens in soon,



and some 'laying sheep', no doubt.


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 29, 2011)

rorya said:


> and some 'laying sheep', no doubt.



buddabudda-bish! 

*Mary* had a little lamb, little lamb, little lamb....


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## Domski (Sep 29, 2011)

I was discussing this with a friend yesterday. We might moan about the lack of extremes in the UK where we don't have really hot temperatures all year but having both worked in places where the tarmac melts and an ice cream lasts for about 5 seconds before running down your arm I don't miss it that much.

Looking forward to my first bbq of the 'summer' this evening 

Dom


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## Domski (Sep 29, 2011)

As for the original question I was reading an article a while back that seemed to suggest the panel technology had improved and cost fallen enough to make it a viable proposition as long as you don't expect a return on your investment within 15 years.

Dom


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 29, 2011)

How about wind turbines?  And are there rules pertaining to wind turbines at ones home?

The concept is so simple that with little effort one could actually build their own wind turbine.  I know they can be a little noisy but I wonder why I don't see more of them?  Smaller home wind turbines don't need strong winds even, I'd imagine there are plenty breezy enough days around Richards neck of the woods.  

If I owned my own place I would definitely have a crack at making my own...


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## RoryA (Sep 29, 2011)

From what I've read, they are surprisingly ineffective in the UK. That's probably a flaw in the design though.


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## Jon von der Heyden (Sep 29, 2011)

Maybe those giant Siemens ones are inefficient...  I'm referring to those smaller home wind turbines.  I lived in a village 12 years ago that was heavily dependent on wind turbines.  Many home-owners made their own.  I don't believe that they are efficient enough as a complete substitute (some people had generators as an addition); but I think they might well be a viable substitute to solar panels...


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## Smitty (Sep 29, 2011)

Atroxell said:


> I'm jealous. Unfortunately not all Northern Californians are lucky enough to be located in a Garden of Eden like Boulder Creek. I used to live down that way (Menlo Park/Palo Alto) and it is gorgeous, especially up in the redwoods. You get your air conditioning from the Pacific Ocean...very nice!


 
It is nice, except for whatever reason the Valley doesn't get any of that ocean air this time of year so it can cook.



> I, on the other hand, live in the part of Northern California that requires one to have air conditioning. The Sacramento Valley often has summertime temps above 100, but usually in the 90s, like today. Although this Summer has been extremely gentle--only about 6 or 8 days over 100. August, usually our hottest month, had no days over 100! That has not happened in 30 years.


 
It can get real hot in Sac , but we've been much luckier than Texas this year, that's for sure.  My folks just moved from Laramie, Wyoming to Mesquite, Nevada and the 120 degree days in August were a bit of a surprise.  They said a few weeks ago in Vegas a homeless guy was beaten/robbed, and some folks came to his aid and laid him down on the sidewalk - by the time they got him to the hospital he had third degree burns on his back where he'd been laying on the ground.



> My air conditioning usually runs me about $250-300/month. I get a break for a month or so in the Fall, then the heater gets me for about the same. Then I get a month or so in the Spring with no heat or air required and start it all over again.


 
Our first winter heat bill up here was over $700 (electric baseboard heaters).  I haven't turned them on since and only use firewood I cut on our property (several cords a year).

Our PG&E rates are 12.2-34.2 cents/hour, easily 30% higher than they were in San Diego.  I'd love to be able to put up solar because we're one of the few homes up here that gets full sun.


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## Joe4 (Sep 29, 2011)

> the temp hovered in the low teens. We kept the fireplace lit the whole time and enjoyed the winter wonderland.
> 
> If you tried to talk outside, the words froze in mid-air, and you had to warm them in a frying pan to hear what you were saying.


Yep, when that happens here in Western/Central New York, it is time to put the light spring jackets away and put on something a little heavier, maybe even wear gloves (except when I am ice fishing - I hardly ever wear gloves doing that, I wouldn't want them to get wet!).


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## alansidman (Sep 29, 2011)

You got me thinking about my electrical costs.  In northern Illinois where our claim to fame is that if you are elected governor of our state, you have a two out three chance of going to jail.  One is there, one has been paroled and a third is appealing his conviction and is out on bail.

I use about 7000 kwh per year and pay an average all-in $0.135 per Kwh.  Lots of taxes and delivery costs versus the actual cost of electricity which is shown as $0.71.  Heat and Hot water are gas.


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## Thorin (Sep 30, 2011)

A local solar panel business asked me to design their website for them, and on one of the pages is a guide on prices and paybacks values. From this an estimate of how long it would take to return your investment can be calculated.

http://www.affordablerenewables.org.uk/pv.html

Go further down the page to see it, maybe this could help your decision.


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 1, 2011)

Thanks Andy


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 7, 2011)

I ended up going with a 3.525 kWP system using Sanyo HIT N series panels.  Most expensive system quote I had, but does maximise the array size.


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## chuckchuckit (Oct 8, 2011)

About 3 years ago I sold a cabin property I had that was about 3 miles as the crow flys from the end of the power lines. Out in the middle of nowhere in Northern California. So the years I had it, had to design and install my own solar system for electricity.

It was a small system only 500 watts but it worked great for all the lights and such. 12 volt DC system as the lights were 12VDC bulbs too. Panels and controller charged four large 6V deep cycle batteries for power storage to run the lights etc. Each battery was a 125 pound monster.

Was a lot of fun to research and design. Lot of work though too. Drilling holes, roof work etc. So much easier to just run it as they do these days with the inverters for 110VAC uses. Or likely 220VAC in England and South Africa.

Sure miss that weekend cabin. The getaway weekends usually ended up being working weekends. Worth it though.

Chuck


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## shg (Oct 8, 2011)

Richard Schollar said:


> I ended up going with a 3.525 kWP system using Sanyo HIT N series panels.


3.5kW, wow. Is that peak power at noon on a cloudless day at the Equator? (Which would not be an unreasonable way to rate systems).

Do you have anything that can log actual power output as a function of time of day? That would make a very interesting spreasheet.


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 8, 2011)

Yep that's what I understand (first point).

I am getting a monitor system that can store up to 28 days' worth of readings including both generated electricity and electricity usage of the property.  I hope to download these and make some comparisons with my neighbour who also has an array of similar size.  I am turning into a sad old git because I am quite excited by the prospect!


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## shg (Oct 8, 2011)

Is it correct that the system will always generate all the power it can, and put unneeded power on the grid?


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 8, 2011)

Yes - because we are in the UK we don't get as much sun as if we were in Spain (or Florida) for example, but it will always generate to its maximum potential.  That's assuming the array is ushaded which can cause problems if it is shaded.

The economic return in the UK (and Germany) is mostly based on the Feed In Tariff (FIT) which is linked to the power generated rather than what you do with it (ie use it for feed it back to the grid).


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## shg (Oct 8, 2011)

OK, we'll need you to post a workbook with power output by date and time of day. Use a dropdown-box to note the weather each day:

Cloudy
Low overcast
Drizzle
Light rain
Drenching rain


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## chuckchuckit (Oct 8, 2011)

Those panels must be pretty big. The ones I had were 55 watts each X10 bought off of ebay about 10 years ago. So your 3.5KW system must be at least 100 watt panels? Take up a good portion of the roof I would imagine.

Mine were at about a 30 degree angle on the roof and sometimes get snow there covering them. If the angle gets too steep though, then the sun angle is not as efficient. I had to decide if I was going to pick the winter angle of the sun, or the summer angle. So I chose a lower winter angle so most of the snow might slide off, and so to get my best efficiency in the winter when there was less sun with the sun lower on the horizon and not there as many hours of the day.


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## shg (Oct 8, 2011)

Here in TX, I'd do the opposite; mount to get the max in the summer when the A/C is going full-blast.

In addition, there are places here where you can opt for demand-based pricing, higher during peak demand (3PM to 7PM), and lower at other times. But we pay $0.10/kWH, and at that rate, it would take a _loooong_ time to pay off solar.

Also, we replaced our 18-year old compressor yesterday to the tune of  $2K, depeleting all energy-related funds for some time.


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## DonkeyOte (Oct 8, 2011)

shg said:


> That would make a very interesting spreasheet.


 
Presuambly Richard would be passing that element of the project onto the real experts also ?


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## chuckchuckit (Oct 8, 2011)

The farther south you go towards the equator like in Texas vs Northern Calif, more hours of sun and higher in the sky for more intense sun. You guys are fortunate there for that.

Only had 550 watts at that cabin and it got to be a bit of a challenge sometimes during the winter if there was not much sun for many days in a row. Those deep cycle batteries were good though but always had to be consious of how low they were being drained so as not to damage them.

If I would have lived there full time I would have needed a lot more panels for sure. Especially if I would have used many power devices or run a refriderator etc off of the batteries when cloudy in the winter. So I used an old Servel propane refriderator instead. That was a challenge too at times as it was built in 1933 but still worked well as long as the pilot light stayed lit... Not very efficient with its propane use though.


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## Richard Schollar (Oct 8, 2011)

The panels are approx 1.7m by 0.8m and are rated at 235W per panel. They pretty much use up all available space on the South facing portion of my roof.

Solar panels are ONLY economic in the UK due to the Government subsidy known as the Feed In Tariff which pays you per unit of power generated (irrespective of what you subsequently do with it).


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## chuckchuckit (Oct 8, 2011)

Those are some big panels! But that is the way to do it as not so many wiring connections needed then to hook them together. I had to design a junction box for the roof to tie all my wires together up there. Then run a "00" sized copper cable (in case I expanded later) down to the battery box. Thick cabling needed for 12VDC when the current developed is high. As likely yours have the inverters for 220VAC right at the panels. So even so much more wattage you have, your cabling does not need to be so thick with the higher voltage (cable thickness is determined by current and distance, i.e. the lower the voltage the thicker the cable required due to ohm's law I=E/R).

Even on cloudy days there was some power being generated. Sometimes only about 1/4 of a sunny day if I remember correctly.

Solar systems are a lot of fun. Especially when you see the electricity being generated just from the sun like that. And no moving parts neither so nothing to wear out as long as the inverters keep working, or a wind storm doesn't blow a panel or two off the roof.

Imagine your system has those inverters built right into the panels themselves on the roof? Solar has come a long way since I was messing with it.


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