# What's life like in the U.K.?



## Greg Truby (Feb 17, 2009)

Gabriel, my twelve-year-old son has to do a school project on a foreign country and he picked the U.K. Item #14 is:

_*"Write a one page paper on what it is like to live in your country today. Include religion, education, food, sports and recreation."*_

So... anyone want to give Gabriel some thoughts on part (or all) of this question? 

Of course, if you have a link you think does a good job of answering this, that too would help. I let him search for a while and he struggled on this one. And I myself have googled quite a bit, but haven't hit anything that I thought did a great job of it. I had thought that articles targeting expats and "what to expect if moving to the U.K." would be a good source. But frankly I ain't that impressed.

Much obliged to anyone who wants to respond!


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

Religion: the UK has a christian heritage and in the 10 yearly census, most respondents describe themselves as christian. There is an established church, the Church of England, of which the Queen is the supreme head. Bishops in the Church of England sit in the House of Lords (the upper house of Parliament). Christmas Day, Good Friday and Easter Monday are 3 of our 8 bank holidays. However, the country is pretty secular really; church attendance is somewhere under 10% I think.

There is a growing Muslim population; we have a strong colonial link with India and Pakistan, so a fairly big immigrant / 2nd generation / 3rd generation community. The Muslim community have a tendency to be (portrayed as being) more vocal about defending their faith. Tabloid newspapers like the Daily Mail regularly have articles about how organisations are happy to offend Christians but wouldn't dare offend Muslims (eg when Jerry Springer The Opera was on there were comments about the Jesus figure, and how it wouldn't be allowed if it was Mohammed being ridiculed). However most people are pretty tolerant of each other, and you can hold pretty much whatever beliefs you want to as long as you don't try to ram them down everyone's throat.


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## Patience (Feb 17, 2009)

Ooh - I would totally like to help but I gotta dash - can I answer tomorrow?


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

This looks like a pretty good overview of the education system. Although it is slightly out-of-date; as of the school year that started in September 2008, children who are just starting secondary school (age 11) or younger will be required to stay in school / vocational training till 17.


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## Greg Truby (Feb 17, 2009)

Patience said:


> Ooh - I would totally like to help but I gotta dash - can I answer tomorrow?


 
Alas, he must turn this in tomorrow and he loses 5 points per day for tardiness. I do wish the lad told me of the difficulty he was having with this item earlier. Thank you nonetheless, Bryony. And THANK YOU, Emma!

Now, what about the rest of you good people over yonder? 

BTW, Gabriel asked me: "If the country is called "the United Kingdom" then what do you call the individual components of it?" I.e. what do you call England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? I know it's not "state" like we use or "province" like Canadians use. The only term I was able to find was "countries" as well. Is that the correct term?


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## VoG (Feb 17, 2009)

There's a lot here on religion, education, sports and food (and more) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_United_Kingdom-related_topics

P.S. Yep - we call them countries.


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

This Wikipedia page on English food is pretty good. Regional specialities in Scotland / Wales / Ireland are different, but given it's a one page thing, he could probably get away with it - maybe throw in a mention of haggis (Scotland)...


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

And yes, the individual parts are countries too.


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## Richard Schollar (Feb 17, 2009)

Yes - England is a country, so is Wales and Scotland.  I don't know if Northern Ireland counts a country though - it may be a Province.  National identity is very strong.  If Scotland were to play virtually any other country at footbal I suspect most English would be supporting the other side 

Sport is very much football focused (as in soccer) although rugby and cricket are also popular.  It is traditional to lament every early July how the top British tennis player just failed to make the grade at Wimbledon.


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## riaz (Feb 17, 2009)

Greg Truby said:


> BTW, Gabriel asked me: "If the country is called "the United Kingdom" then what do you call the individual components of it?" I.e. what do you call England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland? I know it's not "state" like we use or "province" like Canadians use. The only term I was able to find was "countries" as well. Is that the correct term?



The proper name, I believe, is United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

The United Kingdom is a unitary state consisting of four countries: England, Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales.

On 1 May 1707, the Kingdom of Great Britain was created by the political union of the Kingdom of England (which included Wales) and the Kingdom of Scotland. This event was the result of the Treaty of Union that was agreed on 22 July 1706, and then ratified by both the Parliament of England and Parliament of Scotland each passing an Act of Union in 1707. Almost a century later, the Kingdom of Ireland, already under English control by 1691, joined the Kingdom of Great Britain with the passing of the Act of Union 1800. Although England and Scotland had been separate states prior to 1707, they had been in personal union since the Union of the Crowns in 1603, when James VI King of Scots had inherited the throne of the Kingdoms of England and Ireland and moved his court from Edinburgh to London.

Most of the above is from Wikipedia


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

Sport: the national game is football (soccer). Also v important are rugby (Brits don't need body armour!) ) and cricket. We all get very excited about tennis when Wimbledon is on. Golf is quite popular among older people and rich people. When people get really old, they play crown green bowls.


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

Recreation: I know nothing about this. I have a small child; my idea of recreation is a soft play centre...


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## riaz (Feb 17, 2009)

Actually, (this might get Gabriel a few extra marks), at one time Berwick-upon-Tweed was counted as a separate country in the Kingdom (a long time ago).

There is a curious apocryphal story that Berwick is (or recently was) technically at war with Russia. The story tells that since Berwick had changed hands several times, it was traditionally regarded as a special, separate entity, and some proclamations referred to "England, Scotland and the town of Berwick-upon-Tweed". One such was the declaration of the Crimean War against Russia in 1853, which Queen Victoria supposedly signed as "Victoria, Queen of Great Britain, Ireland, Berwick-upon-Tweed and all British Dominions". However, when the Treaty of Paris (1856) was signed to conclude the war, "Berwick-upon-Tweed" was left out. This meant that, supposedly, one of Britain's smallest towns was officially at war with one of the world's largest powers – and the conflict extended by the lack of a peace treaty for over a century.

The BBC programme Nationwide investigated this story in the 1970s, and found that while Berwick was not mentioned in the Treaty of Paris, it was not mentioned in the declaration of war either. The question remained of whether Berwick had ever been at war with Russia in the first place. The true situation is that since the Wales and Berwick Act 1746 had already made it clear that all references to England included Berwick, the town had no special status at either the start or end of the war.

Nevertheless, in 1966 a Soviet official waited upon the Mayor of Berwick, Councillor Robert Knox, and a peace treaty was formally signed. Mr Knox is reputed to have said "Please tell the Russian people that they can sleep peacefully in their beds." To complicate the issue, some have noted that Knox did not have any authority with regard to foreign relations, and thus may have exceeded his powers as mayor in concluding a peace treaty.

(Again, from Wikipedia)


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

Actually, the true British recreation is to get very drunk. Pretty much any social occasion is deemed a success if it ends in this way. I have never understood why...


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## barry houdini (Feb 17, 2009)

Hello Greg,

Indigenous English/British food has a terrible reputation.

There are a huge number of "Indian" and "Chinese" restaurants all over the UK. Famously the late Robin Cook, when Foreign Secretary claimed that chicken tikka massala was Britain's national dish, see here.

Of course this claim was, to some extent, to make a political point...


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## Norie (Feb 17, 2009)

There are also different legislative bodies.

In Scotland there is a devolved parliament which has many, but not all, power over laws etc

In Wales there is also a devolved legislature.

But the main government of the UK involves 2 bodies.

One is the directly elected House of Commons.

The other is the House of Lords which consists of peers, bishops etc, which in recent years has gone through some reform, so they say anway.

As to food.

England - Chicken Tikka Masala

Scotland - Deep Fried Mars Bars

Wales - Lava Bread

Northern Ireland - Full Ulster Breakfast Fry-up

For sport then it's got to football (soccer), mind you there is the rather good F1 driver called Lewis Hamilton.

And the up and coming tennis player Andy Murray.

Oh, and there is cricket but apart from the last few hours England haven't quite impressed.


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

Barry - I don't think the terrible reputation is quite so true any more - there are so many tv chefs / cookery programmes reclaiming proper british cooking now. Curry clearly is the national dish though!


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## VoG (Feb 17, 2009)

To add to Barry's comment, it is actually pretty rare to find an English (or British) restaurant. If you want traditional British food (roast beef, pie and mash/chips, fish 'n chips, ...) then try a pub (most are family friendly nowadays).


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 17, 2009)

Just followed VoG's wiki link - icons that Gabriel should include are (imho):

Doctor Who
Fawlty Towers
Last Night of the Proms
Pantomime
Tea (the drink)
Tube map
Kilts


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## Von Pookie (Feb 17, 2009)

Some more links with more 'official' info (as compared to Wikipedia which a lot of teachers dislike students using) that may help:

http://www.royal.gov.uk/
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/country_profiles/1038758.stm


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## Norie (Feb 17, 2009)

Kristy

****, you beat me to that link.

Greg

As well as that link I would strongly recommend the BBC site.


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## DonkeyOte (Feb 17, 2009)

As for Sports ... in the past the UK has given the world a number of sports - Football (Soccer), Cricket, Rugby to name but a few ... alas we're now mediocre at pretty much everything on the global stage...  as a result we've tried to keep a few of the obscure ones for ourselves... Darts & Snooker immediately spring to mind but alas we're losing our dominance there also with the emergence of the Dutch Darts players (eg Raymond "Barney" van Barneveld attempting to usurp Phil "The Power" Taylor) and snooker players from Asia -- I can testify that in China snooker is HUGE ... tables in the streets no less, "al fresco snooker" was a sight to behold in Shijiazhuang on a cold February morning back in 2001...


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## Colin Legg (Feb 17, 2009)

Brits love talking about weather.

It rains a lot here. 
If there's so much as a hint of snow then we all stay at home because our infrastructure can't seem to cope with it and schools shut down for fear of being sued if a child slips on some ice in the playground.
If it's sunny and hot then we all sit fully clothed on deckchairs at the beach.


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## Norie (Feb 17, 2009)

What about swimming, cycling, tennis (which I mentioned earlier)?

Did we not pick up a few (gold) medals in the last Olympics?

And 'al fresco' snooker sounds a bit scary to me.

I've played golf, one arm golf, golf in the dark but hitting a snooker ball in what is probably darkness sounds a bit dangerous.

Mind you golf in the dark from the front garden of a friend's lawn, attempting to reach a national treasure doesn't seem like the best idea now.


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## Greg Truby (Feb 17, 2009)

Gabriel has now finished up his Table of Contents and Bibliography and the project is ready for submission on the morrow. And he would like to say "thank you" to everyone. Several of you are quoted and are officially footnoted. Gabriel can't believe his father actually knows this many people in the U.K. [Of course, he is now at the age where his hormone addled brain cannot remember what I told him to do three minutes ago and yet, he's completely sure he's waaaay smarter than I.]

Thanks a bunch to everyone for your terrific insights and information!


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## Oaktree (Feb 17, 2009)

The discussion of English cuisine here reminds me of that old joke:

In Heaven: the cooks are French, 
the policemen are English, 
the mechanics are German, 
the lovers are Italian 
and the bankers are Swiss. 

In Hell: the cooks are English, 
the policemen are German, 
the mechanics are French, 
the lovers are Swiss 
and the bankers are Italian


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## Mark O'Brien (Feb 17, 2009)

I'm surprised no one corrected the four countries statement.  Scotland and England are countries, Wales is a Principality and Northern Ireland is a Province.

The CIA World Factbook does a nice little write up on the whole place.  I like the religion part:

Religions:
	Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census) 

Of the 1.6% "Other" a significant portion of people actually listed "Jedi" or "Sith" as their religion.  

I still love Eddie Izzard's take on the Church of England.  ("The Faith", in England only)


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 18, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> I'm surprised no one corrected the four countries statement.  Scotland and England are countries, Wales is a Principality and Northern Ireland is a Province.



But Greg asked what we call them. And we call them countries!

(Cake or death?)


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## Patience (Feb 18, 2009)

I am so sorry I miised this lively discussion! I love talking about home. I hope he gets excellent marks for it - I am sure he shall, reading the calibre of help he received! I had to miss it, as I had an evening semiar on the Politics of Roman Monuments (which was really interesting (and I was really good at! )) for my college work. So I wasn't being idle!


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## Patience (Feb 18, 2009)

Mark O'Brien said:


> Religions:
> Christian (Anglican, Roman Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist) 71.6%, Muslim 2.7%, Hindu 1%, other 1.6%, unspecified or none 23.1% (2001 census)



As someone with no religion (not even atheism) I find it slightly insulting that they put 'unspecified' and 'none' in the same category. 'None' implies you have at least thought about it, 'unspecified' suggests you couldn't be bothered. Bah.


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## RoryA (Feb 18, 2009)

RichardSchollar said:


> National identity is very strong. If Scotland were to play virtually any other country at football I suspect most English would be supporting the other side


 
It's funny, that's the first time I've heard it expressed _that way round_. The general rule of thumb is that *any* nation playing against England is supported by the celtic nations. Works for me, anyway...


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## Lewiy (Feb 18, 2009)

cornflakegirl said:


> (Cake or death?)



Urrrmmmm.......I think I'll take the cake!

(Well at least someone spotted the quote, eh?!)


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## Von Pookie (Feb 18, 2009)

Well, we're all out of cake! We only had three bits and didn't expect such a rush.


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## Greg Truby (Feb 18, 2009)

I'm a smidgeon surprised that with all the Eddie talk, Pook ain't whipped out her "evil giraffe" avatar for the occasion.


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## Von Pookie (Feb 18, 2009)

Oooh, that's right! I kind of forget what avatar I have up anymore.


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## Von Pookie (Feb 18, 2009)

All bettar! 

Edit: shoot, apparently it won't work as an avatar--it's not animated. Oh well.

This is what Greg's talking about:


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## Von Pookie (Feb 18, 2009)

Back to Dandelion Girl, I guess. Man, most of my 'good' ones are animated, too...


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 19, 2009)

Cho-co-late biscuits!

(I love evil giraffe. And evil ducks!)


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## Mark O'Brien (Feb 19, 2009)

cornflakegirl said:


> But Greg asked what we call them. And we call them countries!
> 
> (Cake or death?)



Perhaps you do, but people in Scotland usually are aware that Wales and N. Ireland are not countries.     (I think I'm part of the "we" to which you were referring)...BTW, I always refer to Britain as a "nation", but I'm picky.  

Um...death...I meant cake.


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## Norie (Feb 20, 2009)

Mark

I've always referred to them as countries.

Province and principality seems to be a bit Empire/Commonwealth/Devolution thing.


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## Thorin (Feb 20, 2009)

I've always referred to them as countries as well, but are there any members from Wals and NI who could let us know how they refer to themselves ?


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## Mark O'Brien (Feb 20, 2009)

Norie said:


> Mark
> 
> I've always referred to them as countries.
> 
> Province and principality seems to be a bit Empire/Commonwealth/Devolution thing.



I am quite pedantic.  

Province and Principality is more of a knowing British history thing.  (admitedly the Province thing does depend upon a person's, um, "political" views)


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## Long Nose (Feb 23, 2009)

What's with this cake talk?  I thought ya'll just ordered, <i>Two pints of lager and a packet of crisps, please.</i>


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 23, 2009)

Cake or death is Eddie Izzard's take on what the Spanish Inquisition would have been like if it had been conducted by the Church of England. It is very, very funny.


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## Greg Truby (Feb 23, 2009)

Eddie's got a lot of stuff I like. But I do think combining the Legos with the Star Wars Cafeteria sketch was an exceptionally wonderful fusion of animation and Eddie's narrative (for those who haven't seen it, a quick search of YouTube should get several hits).


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## DonkeyOte (Feb 23, 2009)

Thanks for the pointer Greg - that is indeed hilarious !


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## RoryA (Feb 23, 2009)

What, Jeff Vader?


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## Domski (Feb 23, 2009)

Just reading a book called "Lessons from the land of pork scratchings" by Greg Gutfield which is basically just a bunch of observations by a Yank who's moved to London. It's not quite as insightful as some of Bill Bryson's stuff but a very easy and funny bed time read if you get the chance.


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 24, 2009)

Greg - what is it with Americans saying Legos? Is the brand name actually different over there?


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## Greg Truby (Feb 24, 2009)

Are you saying the plural should be "Legoes" with an "e"?  We also have a bad habit of writing "heros" instead of "heroes", btw.


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## Domski (Feb 24, 2009)

Nope, just Lego.


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 24, 2009)

Greg Truby said:


> Are you saying the plural should be "Legoes" with an "e"?  We also have a bad habit of writing "heros" instead of "heroes", btw.



Aah, hadn't realised that it was a plural. So, are you saying that one brick is a Lego, but if you have two bricks then that's two Legos?

Lego isn't a count noun here. We buy some Lego, play with Lego, and use bricks (or wheels or flat bits or whatever) to refer to individual components.

(Heros is just plain wrong though  )


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## Greg Truby (Feb 24, 2009)

I think, were you to consult the company's marketing literature, your usage would be the same as theirs. However we do use it where one piece is a Lego (I stepped on a Lego last night and bruised my %$#^ing heel!) and multiple pieces are "Legos", i.e. "The children left their Legos out all over the floor yet again", not "...left their Lego all over...". 

Indeed we tend to use "Lego" and "Legos" as sort of generic terms now referring to both actual Lego proper and knock-off similar interlocking brick systems.

<SUP>edit</SUP> Thinking on it, I can virtually guarantee that were I to tell my children to "go pick up your Lego" instead of "go pick up your Legos", they would pick up one Lego block and put it away and leave the rest. <SUB>/edit</SUB>


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## Von Pookie (Feb 24, 2009)

Greg, it's one of those words where the plural is the same as the singular. Just Lego.

...I have no clue why we say 'Legos,' either. I think it just comes out as being more 'natural' or some such crap.


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## Domski (Feb 24, 2009)

In the UK it's all the same:

I bought a Lego set
It consisted of Lego bricks
I use to come home and play with my Lego
My mum used to shout at me for leaving Lego everywhere
The dog used to pick my toys up and play with them until I told him to Lego (sorry)

On an aside I used to keep all my Lego in it's original packaging, the bigger sets anyway. I had to retrieve it from my mum's house when she was having her loft done out and thought I'd pop it to a local toy fair where it seems I have quite a good collection worth about £2.5-3k. Not bad for a few old bits of plastic.

Dom


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## TinaP (Feb 24, 2009)

At one time the Lego company asked that they be called Lego building blocks and not just Lego or Legos.  They didn't want the brand name to become a generic term.


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## Patience (Feb 24, 2009)

Having read the word 'Lego' so many times in this thread, it now seems like an odd word. Almost 29 years on this planet, therefore about 27 years of playing with Lego and not thinking about it, NOW the word sounds odd.


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## yytsunamiyy (Feb 24, 2009)

Patience said:


> Having read the word 'Lego' so many times in this thread, it now seems like an odd word. Almost 29 years on this planet, therefore about 27 years of playing with Lego and not thinking about it, NOW the word sounds odd.



Well it would wouldn't it? What with it being an artificial word in Danish being made up of the Danish words for "play well / good" (or so one hears...)


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## barry houdini (Feb 24, 2009)

Surely it's French? 

Le go

....of course if it was Spanish it would be

El go


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## xlHammer (Feb 24, 2009)

taken from The Lord of the Rings, by J R R Tolkein;


```
……Legolas?” said Frodo, “That’s a funny name.”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
“Yes,” replied Legolas, clearly embarrassed. “My mum wanted a girl, who …. played with Lego. Probably.”
```


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## cornflakegirl (Feb 24, 2009)

Did anyone have a set called Noisy Neighbours when they were a kid? Three or four houses / apartments that you could build in various permutations, and (I think) the animals that lived in them. I swear that my sister and I had a set of this each when we were younger, and it should clearly still be in my parents' loft, but they are feigning ignorance... and so is Google...

(My nearly 4yo still shows no interest in Lego. It's very distressing.)


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## RoryA (Feb 24, 2009)

```
……Legolas?” said Frodo, “That’s a funny name.”<?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>
“Look who's talking,” replied Legolas.
```


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## schielrn (Feb 24, 2009)

cornflakegirl said:


> Did anyone have a set called Noisy Neighbours when they were a kid? Three or four houses / apartments that you could build in various permutations, and (I think) the animals that lived in them. I swear that my sister and I had a set of this each when we were younger, and it should clearly still be in my parents' loft, but they are feigning ignorance... and so is Google...
> 
> (My nearly 4yo still shows no interest in Lego. It's very distressing.)


I remember LegoCity, but maybe Noisy Neighbours was a UK thing?

http://city.lego.com/en-us/Products/Police/7744.aspx


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## Spiritinthesky (Feb 26, 2009)

Hope yo have all the info you need. I just wanted to add that, the UK has changed so much over the past 20 years. You go to London and its hard to find an English person working in the hotels, bars and trains. And the gap between England and Scotland is becoming wider, Scotland is still like the UK used to be 20 years ago.


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## Norie (Feb 26, 2009)

deleted


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## schielrn (Feb 26, 2009)

Norie said:


> In what way?
> 
> We do have electricty and colour TV.


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## Norie (Feb 26, 2009)

schierln

We've also got broadband, trees, grass, wheelbarrows, them strange solar lamps etc.

Just what I can see when looking out the window.


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## TinaP (Feb 26, 2009)

Greg,

I'm curious, what grade did Gabriel get on his project?


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## Spiritinthesky (Mar 2, 2009)

And the weather is not good in the UK!


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## Long Nose (Mar 2, 2009)

Spiritinthesky said:


> And the weather is not good in the UK!



Didn't they say cold rain and wind builds character, or something?


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## Norie (Mar 2, 2009)

The weather in the UK is brilliant.

Went out shopping early evening, it was raining and windy - almost seemed like you'd get blown over.

Left the store, rain gone but wind still going.

But when I got back home and looked out the window, rain gone, the sky was a lovely clear/darkening blue and the wind had stopped.

Mind you while I've been typing this I can here the wind picking up.


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## Long Nose (Mar 2, 2009)

I reckon brilliant could mean mildly moist, but still woolly jumper weather?


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## Norie (Mar 2, 2009)

'Warm jumper weather'?

It seems to be some sort of macho thing to go about without jumpers or teeshirts, ie barechested.

It normally happens in the summer but I've seen it after sporting events.


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## Long Nose (Mar 2, 2009)

Norie said:


> 'Warm jumper weather'?
> 
> It seems to be some sort of macho thing to go about without jumpers or teeshirts, ie barechested.
> 
> It normally happens in the summer but I've seen it after sporting events.



Perhaps this is the character building I've heard about, then again perhaps not.  More likely a few pints + sport = true men of greatness.  

Not for me these days, I guess I've become a little boring.


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## Andrew Fergus (Mar 2, 2009)

Norie said:


> We've also got broadband.....{snip}...etc.
> 
> Just what I can see when looking out the window.


Photo please!  I'd like to see what braodband looks like when looking out the window.  You might be on to some new-fangled invention - I think other countries use DSL and / or wireless services.......


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## Norie (Mar 2, 2009)

Andrew

I knew that question about broadband might come up.

I think it's something to do with elves, they seem to dart about all over the place with IP packages.

In rucksacks and occasionaly pannier bags on their small mountain bikes.


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## Andrew Fergus (Mar 2, 2009)

Norie said:


> I think it's something to do with elves, they seem to dart about all over the place with IP packages.
> 
> In rucksacks and occasionaly pannier bags on their small mountain bikes.


Hi Norie

Aaaahhh!  *Penny drops*  So that's how the intraweb thingy works......were the pannier bags and mountain bikes Al Gore's invention?


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## Andrew Fergus (Mar 2, 2009)

Norie said:


> It seems to be some sort of macho thing to go about without jumpers or teeshirts, ie barechested.
> 
> It normally happens in the summer but I've seen it after sporting events.


And I thought the gangs of bare-chested sinewy men roamed mist-filled valleys singing in close harmony terrorising the locals, with the requisite half pint of pleghm in their throats to assist with the pronunciation of place names! On second thoughts, maybe that's the Welsh.......


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